i never really thought much about the issue of women in math and science until recently. my gender never seemed to play a role in my academic interests, and i honestly thought it was kind of silly to make a big deal about it. however, as a result of a few incidents at school and a few articles i have read the topic has been on my mind a lot lately. among students entering phd programs in math and science it is about 50% men and 50% women, but if you look at tenured faculty members it's about 90% men and 10% women. what is happening to make women lose interest in pursuing careers in the sciences?
i think that a primary cause of attrition is family life. some women quit work after getting married and/or having children because they want to focus on family life. i also think that even those women that wish to continue in academics find it difficult - the tenure system requires that the most fertile years of a woman's life are spent killing herself to prove her mettle, and should she fail she will lose her job. this is different from many other professions in that there is a tenure clock - 7 years after hiring an individual (actual number varies by institution) a committee looks at everything he/she has completed and decides whether to grant guaranteed job security or to fire the individual. there is no middle ground.
in a recent issue of science they had an article about MIT's female faculty members in physical and life sciences. although the university has been making a concerted effort for the past 7 years to increase the percentage of women in these departments, the numbers have stayed the same or declined. several women were interviewed and they all said that they felt very isolated in their departments. the men left them out of important decisions, and all seemed to team up together. the women had less research space than their male counterparts, regardless of their grant monies. those few women who do manage to beat the tenure system find that their rewards pale in comparison to those of their male counterparts. (and often women have to give up having children to get tenure, men do not have to make this decision).
these are two huge hurdles, but i wonder what else factors into this trend. i think there may be some biology behind it. the female and male brains are different . . . maybe in ways that make women less likely to be interested in or good at math/science.
my pet hypotheses relate to why women hold fewer positions of power in general, not just in math and science. the first being that the personality traits required for success in a competitive field are considered unladylike. i have heard my colleagues deride our female professors for being overly aggressive or for using their sexuality to get ahead while they have no problem with it coming from a male. women get punished for success. the other new idea i had was about the effects of menstruation and hormonal birth control. it certainly messes with your brain and body in a big way. interestly, i am extremely reluctant to make this argument because i feel like it makes women seem weak to make excuses for their behavior. i know that my logic is wrong in the same way it is wrong to suggest that alcoholism is something you can just "get over" if you try hard enough, but it is still hard to accept that my reproductive biology can control me the way it does.
so, these are my extremely biased thoughts. i'd be interested to hear what other people have to say about the subject (especially the men!).
women in math and science
Everything else, basically.
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- deroosisonfire Offline
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women in math and science
"There's no such thing as extra pepperoni. There's just pepperoni you can transfer to another person."
-Wes
-Wes
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- beardedlamb Offline
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a lot of what you've said holds water...
accidental joke.
it's hard to take what you read as the final word on anything. there's no doubt facts have been spun throughout history and viewpoints have been imposed on the truth to accomplish various agendas. that's not to say that what you're reading isn't true and that it isn't unjust.
the danger in trying to figure out inequalities in our reality is confusing the group with the individual. groups are dangerous, typically mismanaged, flighty, and follow different rules of psychology. the individual has a higher chance of being rational, truthful, and a better example of how things should be.
so the trick is to take each individual and evaluate them based on who they are, not what group they are from. this is nearly impossible but the more a person is conscious of it, the more good they can do in the world.
it sucks that not as many women take part in or are equally rewarded for being in the sciences. but even posing answers to this problem and using corrective measures other than teaching ideals of individualism is still treating the problem by looking at the group. this is why i disagree with affirmative action. outside actions to aid a group are not going to be as effective as changing the ways of the effector. teach them to judge the individual, not to make policy changes based on gender or race.
the part about women having to sacrifice their careers for a family is not unique to the university tenure system. this is a problem in just about every career that a woman can choose. everyone makes sacrifices to make a good family happen. a unique relationship with a man who understands your career desires is possible. stay at home dads do exist. i mean, who wants to date a stupid normal guy anyway? not me.
I guess the existentialist in me says, "Everyone has their problems."
The nihilist in me says, "Who cares? Fuck it."
The Kantist says, "Treat others as ends, and do your best in your own way."
The christian inside me says, "I don't exist."
ok. back to basketball.
b
accidental joke.
it's hard to take what you read as the final word on anything. there's no doubt facts have been spun throughout history and viewpoints have been imposed on the truth to accomplish various agendas. that's not to say that what you're reading isn't true and that it isn't unjust.
the danger in trying to figure out inequalities in our reality is confusing the group with the individual. groups are dangerous, typically mismanaged, flighty, and follow different rules of psychology. the individual has a higher chance of being rational, truthful, and a better example of how things should be.
so the trick is to take each individual and evaluate them based on who they are, not what group they are from. this is nearly impossible but the more a person is conscious of it, the more good they can do in the world.
it sucks that not as many women take part in or are equally rewarded for being in the sciences. but even posing answers to this problem and using corrective measures other than teaching ideals of individualism is still treating the problem by looking at the group. this is why i disagree with affirmative action. outside actions to aid a group are not going to be as effective as changing the ways of the effector. teach them to judge the individual, not to make policy changes based on gender or race.
the part about women having to sacrifice their careers for a family is not unique to the university tenure system. this is a problem in just about every career that a woman can choose. everyone makes sacrifices to make a good family happen. a unique relationship with a man who understands your career desires is possible. stay at home dads do exist. i mean, who wants to date a stupid normal guy anyway? not me.
I guess the existentialist in me says, "Everyone has their problems."
The nihilist in me says, "Who cares? Fuck it."
The Kantist says, "Treat others as ends, and do your best in your own way."
The christian inside me says, "I don't exist."
ok. back to basketball.
b
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- beardedlamb Offline
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- arthursimone Offline
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my knee-jerk opinion is that men aren't genetically better at games and puzzles and logic, and by extension math and sciences, we just care more about them.
men are fundamentally insecure because we can't have kids. we're dirt, we're nothing, we are only responsible for genetic reproduction in the most irresponsible of ways.
go we make shit up to feel important.
country clubs, hunting lodges, political parties, wars, religions, the eternal 'boys only clubs' that will never ever ever go away. it's the bone we throw ourselves, the consolation prize we're allowed, we get to feel we're bringing home the meat, lighting the campfires, changing the world.
again, we aren't better at all this per se, we just get a little more obsessive and perfectionist about it. male competition is a whole lot different from female competition. we're protective little monsters, we are.
men are fundamentally insecure because we can't have kids. we're dirt, we're nothing, we are only responsible for genetic reproduction in the most irresponsible of ways.
go we make shit up to feel important.
country clubs, hunting lodges, political parties, wars, religions, the eternal 'boys only clubs' that will never ever ever go away. it's the bone we throw ourselves, the consolation prize we're allowed, we get to feel we're bringing home the meat, lighting the campfires, changing the world.
again, we aren't better at all this per se, we just get a little more obsessive and perfectionist about it. male competition is a whole lot different from female competition. we're protective little monsters, we are.
I'm optimistic. I think our society is slowly edging towards gender and racial equality.
Many people growing up nowadays are pushing and growing this new equality ideal. I have a lot of faith in the kids nowadays, and in the parents raising them. I think people are more open-minded and accepting and progressive than they've ever been in any multicultural country, ever. So much inequity still exists, but we are further along than we were fifty years ago. It just takes a long time to change the mindset of a culture.
Many people growing up nowadays are pushing and growing this new equality ideal. I have a lot of faith in the kids nowadays, and in the parents raising them. I think people are more open-minded and accepting and progressive than they've ever been in any multicultural country, ever. So much inequity still exists, but we are further along than we were fifty years ago. It just takes a long time to change the mindset of a culture.
I love this topic of discussion. I stimulates my intellect in ways you cannot imagine, but I believe I speak for all men here;
It does not matter if a woman is an intellectual giant, makes more or less money, has a family or not, or has a cooler job.
The only one thing that matters is they all need to...
SHUT UP AND GET NAKED!!!
-Dav
It does not matter if a woman is an intellectual giant, makes more or less money, has a family or not, or has a cooler job.
The only one thing that matters is they all need to...
SHUT UP AND GET NAKED!!!
-Dav
"This football testoserone lovin mofo ain't diggin the jazz hands!"
Quoted from my wife when I was jazz handsing.
Quoted from my wife when I was jazz handsing.
Wow. You know, I've been thinking about how to respond to this.
Basically, I've come to the conclusion that it's truly undeniable that I want nothing more than to shut up and get naked with you, Dav. I want to be inside you, and I want to be inside your wife. I want us to silently peel off each other's Columbia jackets, then the Dockers, then...mmmm. Barbecue sauce.
My place. Friday. On my velvet chaise longue.
Anyone care to join?
Basically, I've come to the conclusion that it's truly undeniable that I want nothing more than to shut up and get naked with you, Dav. I want to be inside you, and I want to be inside your wife. I want us to silently peel off each other's Columbia jackets, then the Dockers, then...mmmm. Barbecue sauce.
My place. Friday. On my velvet chaise longue.
Anyone care to join?
Man, this always happens.
First, I start philosophizing about society in a public forum in order to attract men.
Dude bites the bait. Then, I propose sweet, sweet action.
Then they come up with this "I'm only into the handicapped" excuse.
What's going on? Where are the sex-hungry wild men I've heard about my whole life?
Christina, get some testosterone measurements for the dudes, stat. We're at an all-time low.
First, I start philosophizing about society in a public forum in order to attract men.
Dude bites the bait. Then, I propose sweet, sweet action.
Then they come up with this "I'm only into the handicapped" excuse.
What's going on? Where are the sex-hungry wild men I've heard about my whole life?
Christina, get some testosterone measurements for the dudes, stat. We're at an all-time low.
Ahem...Perhaps we haven't been "properly" introduced.madeline wrote:Where are the sex-hungry wild men I've heard about my whole life?
"Have you ever scrapped high?" Jon Bolden "Stabby" - After School Improv
http://www.improvforevil.com
http://www.improvforevil.com