Sexism???

[York99]

I know there are a lot of supporters of the feminist movement around here (I'm lookin' at you, Beeler and Andrea), so I'm asking this question in all earnestness:

What sexism has Hilary Clinton had to endure during this campaign?

Nobody has given any examples. The loudest whistle-blower has been Geraldine Ferraro. The only mention of anything semi-concrete was that GF said that someone said something mean to a woman. It seems to me that sexism has to be something mean BASED ON gender. Otherwise, the media, Obama supporters, etc have been treating her just as they would treat a male candidate. That's gender neutrality, which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of sexism.

Further, I think that the only sexist in this debate has been Geraldine Ferraro and others like her who keep playing the sex card.

I have the same question about the cries of "reverse racism".

Again, I'm being totally earnest here. I sincerely haven't heard anything that resembles sexism and I watch a shit-ton of news. I'm not saying that she's been treated totally fairly, but I haven't seen any evidence that any discrimination she's experienced has been based on gender or race.

Enlighten me if need-be.

[DollarBill]

There was that whole "crying" thing, where she teared up a couple times. There was talk about weather or not that was because she's a lady. Also there was that stink about weather certain countries would respect america with a woman president. But those two things aren't really sexist unless you talk about them in an ignorant, sexist way. They could just be realistic debate topics if you're fair about it.

[improvstitute]

There was that whole "crying" thing, where she teared up a couple times. There was talk about weather or not that was because she's a lady. Also there was that stink about weather certain countries would respect america with a woman president. But those two things aren't really sexist unless you talk about them in an ignorant, sexist way. They could just be realistic debate topics if you're fair about it.

agreed. I haven't seen anything or even heard any talk of it at SafePlace - a feminist organization. I thnik a much bigger deal has been made of race being a faactor in Obama's success - as in he wouldn't have been so successful among African-American voters if he were African-American.

I have been curious to know as well Justin.

[HerrHerr]

What's wrong with being sexy?

[Jon Bolden]

What's wrong with being sexy?

Smell the glove...

[Jessica]

All of the following is just my opinion - please don't take it as the feminist line. This is just what I think and see.

I haven't watched the race that closely for the last several weeks so I'm not all that up on what is going on recently. But I do feel that some of the charges of her being "too ambitious" wouldn't be there if she were a man. There also seems to be a lot of flack for the fact that she is very aggressive - again I don't think that would be flung around as much if she were a man. I've also heard the term "bitch" flung around a lot - which is usually a term for someone who is stepping out side their gender roles. All of these may be absolutely true - but would she have gotten as much flack for them if she were a man? I really don't think so. I also saw an article about "is America ready for a woman president." I didn't read it because it really upset me that the question even has to be asked. It just made me feel like such a second class citizen.

Also, early on I heard several people talk about how ugly she is, usually by really ugly men. I find that pathetic that this would even be a factor. But also, let's face it, Clinton is no model but she is above average for a woman her age. The fact that "pretty" is a standard for her just turns my stomach.

Often the sexism that women encounter is pretty subtle - making it harder to fight against. I think, in general, the media has been on their best behavior in this area, but there are a lot of other people out there that still have a hard time with powerful women.

By the way, I say all of this being an Obama supporter.

[nadine]

Umm.. Hillary Clinton's cleavage that somehow made multiple frontpage news:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=cli ... a=N&tab=wn

I think I'm not the only women who, despite being Obama supporters, view the malice and hatred that Hilary faced and wonder if the same thing would happen to us, if we were to challenge power positions in our society.

In the Fortune 50 companies in 2007 there is only 1 woman CEO.
In the Fortune 500 componies, only 13 female CEOs.

Colleges nowadays have more women students then male students.. Why do we not see the same proportions in powerful positions? Are you telling me all women decided to have babies and quit their jobs? Or do we think there are no ambitious and smart women? Or is it because any women who's smart and ambitious is obviously sacrificing her feminity and maternal instincts?

Sexism can be unconscious.

13 out of 500.. that's 2.6% women as Fortune 500 CEOs.

"There have been 35 women in the United States Senate since the establishment of that body in 1789, meaning that out of the 1,897 Americans who have served in the United States Senate since that time, 1.85 percent have been female." from wikipedia.

There's only been 2 supreme judges that have been women (Sandra O Conner and Ruth Ginsberg). Ever.

0% of women have been president or vice-president in the US.

Yes, sexism is alive.

[Wesley]

Personally, I'll grant her that she sometimes got the short end of the sexism stick the second I hear her come out and admit that she got the long end of the racism stick in places like Kentucky and West Virginia, and that she's benefited as much by racism against Obama's run as she's been hurt by sexism against her's.
Victims are victims. Wrong is wrong.

Sure there have been some sex-related incidents, largely in the media (more than via her competitors). But I don't see anything as inflammatory as Ferraro was complaining about. It seems if sex is brought up at all, it is deemed sexist. In a race like this, is it possible to openly discuss race or sex without it being deemed racist or sexist by those that disagree with your conclusion?

But, as gauche as it is to say, I still think the sexism in question is a matter of degrees. Yes, I think that there have been sexist incidents and attacks (as expected the first time a woman goes this far). But, I don't think that they played a significant role in the campaign and her successes or failures in it.

And as much as 'sexism' has been blamed for hurting her, she's already beat out 7, mostly white, males just to get where she is, and though she'll lose the nomination, she made a serious run for it and kept the race close. She lost, but she played in the big leagues and fact is, in elections, someone has to lose.

Plus, you have to admit that she is a polarizing figure, woman or not. It may just be that she wasn't electable. Not that people didn't want to elect a woman, but that many people didn't want to elect that woman. Was the malice and hatred aimed at her because of her gender or her own personality?

Finally, what is sexism?
Is it sexist or an honest question to ask "Does a culture like America really want to watch a woman grow old for 8 years before their eyes on TV?" Some would say it is. Some would say it isn't. It is sex-related, but is it sexist.
Is it sexist for a woman to say another woman shouldn't run for office? (I saw a clip of West Virginia women who believed that a woman's place was in the home because the Bible said so and therefore they would never vote for a woman. Is this sexist?)
or is it sexist for spurned women not to vote for her because her husband cheated and they feel she was weak for not dumping him?

[nadine]

Is it sexist or an honest question to ask "Does a culture like America really want to watch a woman grow old for 8 years before their eyes on TV?" Some would say it is. Some would say it isn't. It is sex-related, but is it sexist.

--Yes.

Is it sexist for a woman to say another woman shouldn't run for office? (I saw a clip of West Virginia women who believed that a woman's place was in the home because the Bible said so and therefore they would never vote for a
woman. Is this sexist?)

-- Yes. Lots of women are sexist. Just like there are plenty of black racists.

or is it sexist for spurned women not to vote for her because her husband cheated and they feel she was weak for not dumping him?

-- Depends if men are held to the same standard.
Every relationship is different, with different issues and ways of handling conflict. Adultery in public figures seem to scare Americans for some reason.

Hi Wes!

[arthursimone]

Clinton lost the nomination months ago.


It's hard to say whether her supporters, surrogates, and the media itself kept pretending she could win based on her gender or based on her iconic status.

I don't think many would disagree however, that had this nomination process been flipped, Obama would have been viewed as "the bitter angry black man refusing to quit and dragging the party down with him" rather than "the scrappy, spunky underdog that won't take society's 'no' for an answer!"

[Wesley]

That's why I raised those last points.

To me, it is not sexist to ask that question and explore it.
The answer may in fact turn out to be that yes, at our heart we don't want to see a woman age on tv becaues we do have a sexist streak in our culture, but often just asking the question seems to be enough to get the asker labeled as being sexist.
(In this case, the question was one Rush Limbaugh was trying to raise in the media 6 months ago. I found the question fair and interesting, but I'll happily admit I also found the way he went about bringing it up to be sexist, rude, and done with the intention of hurting her chances.)

In order to move past sexism, racism, ageism, NASCARism, etc, we have to ask some questions that may lead to not so happy or flattering answers.
What always gets me is how it seems that while a segment of people get angry that sexism exists and rail against its effects, the same people often label frank and honest discussion of sex and gender as immediately being inherently sexist (and therefore shameful to bring up at all). Many people it seems don't want it to exist, but they don't want to talk about why it does, either.

Does it perpetuate or reduce sexism to scream sexism at every sex-related issue that is brought up and explored?

I think some of Ferraro's points were on target, but more were some hyper-sensitivity to the subject matter and seeing what she wanted to see, not what was intended.

Easy to say as a white male, I know.

Hi Nadine!

[KathyRose]

Is it ageist to comment on John McCain's health?
Is it idiocratist to comment on George W's stupidity?
Is it neophytist to comment on Obama's "inexperience" ...?

This year's political campaigns have been run about as fairly & civilly as any have ever been. I'd say to all of the candidates who feel picked on, and to all of the supporters who feel that their candidates have been picked on - get over it. Life is not fair. People are free (in this country) to say nasty things. And they will. Either cowboy up or get out of the ring.

And just wait until your candidate is elected - that's when the zingers will really fly.

[mpbrockman]

Either cowboy up or get out of the ring.

Thank you, Kathy.

[nadine]

I don't think anyone on this thread ever said that talking about sexism or racism is a bad thing.

But yeah, Hillary faced sexism during her campaign, just like Obama faces racism. And I'm sure we'll hear a lot more now that he's claim victory.

There will be democrats who won't vote for Obama just because he's black... here's hoping they are in Republican states anyways and their votes won't count.

[York99]

I don't at all deny that sexism exists in our country. That's not my question.

But we have this discussion here and the only somewhat concrete examples of sexism to Clinton are:
-questions that her crying are because she's a woman (questions, not necessarily accusations)
-questions about whether other countries would accept a woman (again questions... ones with answers that lie in strong women leaders throughout history)
-other questions about her ambitiousness or bitchiness (again, questions for debate with no evidence of actual sexism)
-articles about cleavage (maybe legit, as I recall an email forward a while ago mocking Bill Clinton's "pants boner" and cleavage is unique to women)

Harsh scrutiny on all points of a potential candidate is normal... just as Kathy pointed out.

There's nothing that I see as so overtly sexist as to merit the ire of people like Ferraro. She makes it sound like we're all prancing around and pulling our shirts out at the nipples while pretending to solve the war by knitting the Iraqis nice sweaters in a high-pitched sing-songy voice. Nothing like that's happening. Nothing even close.