How do I get taken seriously as an improviser?

[Spaztique]

Note: I know this post is going to further alienate me, but I'm too frustrated to really care.

I've been thinking, and last Tuesday night jam was the kicker for it: despite improvising for a little more than a year, I'm still treated like a newb, and I think I know why: NOBODY, except for a select few, has ever seen me perform.

I have only had 10 shows in my time as an improviser, and I can name them all.

1. The December 10, 2006 Maestro
2. Let's Rock's cagematch
3. The first Midnight Society Show ever (I still got that cigar, too)
4. The second Midnight Society show at the Hideout
5. The third Midnight Society show at the Thursday Night Awesome
6. The fourth (and my final) Midnight Society show (before getting permanently kicked out for depression)
7. Pre-Halloween Maestro
8. Halloween Maestro
9. Solo Showcase
10. Same Year's Eve 2007

And that's it.

And every troupe that I am in (i.e., Let's Rock and Spaztique+Friends) has been rejected from the schedule (though, looking this way, I guess it's kind of a blessing for the people of Midnight Society, since they get to go to festivals and whatnot without me).

And everyone's response is: "You're just overreacting. Just keep taking classes and keep going to jams." I'VE TAKEN ENOUGH CLASSES!!! I ALREADY KNOW HOW TO IMPROVISE!!! I know how to "Yes, And", take care of my scene partners, find the relationship, find the game, find the objective, establish CROW, know what CROW means (Character, Relationship, Objective, Where/World), make and maintain a character, commit to choices, listen, take meaningful suggestions, follow a story arc, and avoid things like blocking, bridging, hedging, looping, wimping, canceling, sidetracking, being too original at the expense of a scene, gagging at the expense of a scene, and/or going blue.

And even though I look nervous, I am not nervous. I'm just full of energy 24-7; hence the name.

And don't say, "Well, you said it yourself: you've been improvising for a year." There have been several people who've been doing improv/been in the AIC for less time than I have who are all in troupes and have been in at least one improv festival.

Another thing I get is people saying I don't look like a trustworthy scene partner. Then again, I get that a lot as a human being, which is probably why so many teachers/girls are scared of me. I've taken care of my scene partners many, many times, especially with less experienced improvisers (if you can call them that, seeing as "inexperienced" as I am).

The same goes for ensembles. I can't be apart of an ensemble because nobody thinks I'd be a good player, and people think I'm not a good player for not already being apart of one. I was in a troupe, once, and we were solid! Unfortunately, by the time anybody from the Hideout got to see them, I was already kicked out!

And what does everyone have against me directing? Even if it's just for a simple jam? Last jam, James hosted a bunch of a games with no problem, and then Zach hosted a bunch of games with no problem, but then I ask for two games, and then people go, "Oooh! It's the David Zimmerman show!" And people ask everyone but me how to play certain improv games when I've seen every game and know all the rules for each one. People think I'm joking when I volunteer for a directing position (even if it's just for a jam), but I'm not: I seriously think I'd make a competent director.

And the same goes for hosting. I was on the debate team in high school (doing impromptu speeches in debate tournaments, no-less), and my public speaking ability could be considered somewhere on or above-par.

Even as a tech guy, I'm not taken seriously. I know what a lightboard/soundboard is, so don't give a tutorial on how to run it every time I even get close to one. I know how to turn the lights on and off, and if I say they're powered down (and there are no lights on in the theatre), don't keep looking for the off switch that I just turned off and tell me I didn't just turn off the main lights. I know the difference between a wash and a spotlight. I know there's a difference between the main mix and the other mixing channels. I used to help produce the morning announcements at my high school, so I know a thing or two about production.

So, this brings me to my point: how do I go about being taken seriously as an improviser?! Should I make a demo video? Should I open my own theatre or buy a time slot at the Hideout just to play in a show? Should I just blindly ask all the different troupes if I can have/pay for a guest spot in their shows? What do I have to do to prove myself?!

On a side note, I have another idea: we have a proving grounds show to showcase eager and upcoming improvisers. It could serve as a recruitment pool for shows and troupes, and it could matter much more than the jam.

[kbadr]

I don't have an answer for the rest of it, but I can say that to an audience member, looking nervous is identical to being nervous.

[Justin D.]

Like Kareem, I don't have a direct answer, but I have to agree with the bit about looking nervous is the same as being nervous to an audience member. You say you're full of energy 24/7, but that could have something to do with the fact that nine out of ten times I see you, you're drinking an energy drink. Plus, you talk about not sleeping at night. I have insomnia and it's worse at times than others, but I can get wired in a manic, bad way if I haven't had enough sleep. That would be a huge step right there. I've had shows where I wasn't feeling it at all and wanted out, but simply walked backstage to get myself together before charging back on-stage. The saying "never let'em see you sweat" exists for more reasons than just selling deodorant. Jumping that hurdle would be a big step in the right direction, I think.

There's nothing wrong with confidence. Frankly, if I didn't think I was good enough to be on stage, I wouldn't try. I've had variations of this conversation with multiple people before. However, that doesn't mean you, and virtually everyone else, doesn't have more to learn. I'm pretty good at tech, but I've messed up there before myself because I didn't check with those on stage first. It's all about context and each situation has its own quirks.

Also, I don't think this thread belongs on this board. This isn't an AIC issue. I'm not sure why you've put it on this board, because I've seen you ask questions like this before and answers have been given each time so it's not like anyone has ignored you.

Lastly, I think you've gotten a lot better since I first met you. Then again, I can say that about pretty much everyone in the AIC.

[Spaztique]

Also, I don't think this thread belongs on this board. This isn't an AIC issue. I'm not sure why you've put it on this board, because I've seen you ask questions like this before and answers have been given each time so it's not like anyone has ignored you.

Like I said, I was too frustrated to think.

Admin, could you move this to General Discussion or Major Havoc?

[improvstitute]

I don't have an answer for the rest of it, but I can say that to an audience member, looking nervous is identical to being nervous.

Second that. And I think the same could be said for a potential scene partners.

Some other thoughts...

In my opinion, there is no better "proving ground" than kicking ass in Micetro on a regular basis. If you can, you should play every week. That is where a variety of improvisers, of all different skill levels and from all different troupes, come together to play and improve their skills. There is no better feedback than a Micetro audience. I cut my chops there and so did a ton of other people from this community. If I could time-wise, I would still play in it every week to keep my skills up. The beauty of it is that you do not need to be in a troupe to play.

There is no substitute for performing. PGraph did an insane amount of shows in their first year as a troupe and look at the benefits of that now. You can't argue with their success. It is a product of their efforts on stage (and off). At the same time, I have seen troupes that have been together for years that really suck at improv - despite having done 100+ shows (not refering to anyone in Austin here in case anyone was wondering). Credibility comes with the combination of quality and quantity. It is different for every person. There is no magical formula of 12 shows + 2 years on the scene = respect from the community. You get it when you get it, but sooner rather than later if you perform alot and make an effort to improv based o nthe feedback you get.

I don't know you because I am not around that often anymore, but I have to say that it seems like you just don't want to hear what people are telling you. If you have repeatedly been given the advice to keep taking classes and going to jams, then perhaps you need to recognize that there is probably a great deal of truth in that advice (althought I would add play Micetro A BUNCH to taking classes and going to jams). Knowing the generally agreed upon rules of improv does not make you good at improv (again, I have never seen you play so I am not saying that you are not good). Likewise, if you have been told that you look nervous or seem untrustworthy as a scene partner on stage, then those are things you should take a closer look at if you value what others think - and you obviously do.

Lastly, if you are unsatisfied with the answers you are getting and unwilling to recognize their validity, then quit asking for people's opinions. I am not trying to be an asshole, but I feel like I need to be straight up with you. Take the note! I know if I get the same note over and over again, then there must be something to it. The sooner you are willing to hear that, the sooner you will get what you are looking for.

[kbadr]

I would also add that improvisers love playing with improvisers who make it fun to be on stage with them. Focusing on giving your scene partners a good time, rather than being funny for yourself, is always a good general performance rule. I'm not saying this as a personal note to you, I'm just talking in general terms.

[Spaztique]

I don't know you because I am not around that often anymore, but I have to say that it seems like you just don't want to hear what people are telling you.

and...

Lastly, if you are unsatisfied with the answers you are getting and unwilling to recognize their validity, then quit asking for people's opinions. I am not trying to be an asshole, but I feel like I need to be straight up with you. Take the note! I know if I get the same note over and over again, then there must be something to it. The sooner you are willing to hear that, the sooner you will get what you are looking for.

That's another thing I get a lot, aside from being told I look too nervous or I don't look like a good scene partner: that I don't look like I take advice. I take always advice, even if I respond. Besides, I'd say what I've been hearing recently has been a lot more productive than "Keep going to classes and keep going to jams".

[improvstitute]

OK...so here is what I have gathered so far:

When you ask what you have to do to be taken seriously as an improviser (by the improv community I assume):

1. You are told that you are overreacting and that you just need to keep taking classes and going to jams. You respond buy saying "I'VE TAKEN ENOUGH CLASSES!!! I ALREADY KNOW HOW TO IMPROVISE!!!"

2. You are told that you look nervous on stage. You respond by saying "I am not nervous. I am just full of energy 24-7."

3. You are told that you don't come across as a trustworthy scene partner. You respond by saying "I've taken care of my scene partners many, many times...".

4. You are told that you don't appear to take advice/suggestions/notes. You respond by saying "I take advice. I always take advice, even if I respond."

In each of these instances, you are denying the opinion that you asked for. If you ask for an opinion, you can't dismiss it or refute it. People won't want to give you their opinions anymore. Instead, they might ignore you, blow you off, not want to perform with you, dismiss your opinions, question your abilities, find you immature, etc. You get my drift???

Personally, I don't really want to give you my opinion anymore because I feel like you will just find a way to tell me how I am wrong about my own opinion. The way you show that you know how to take a note is to say something like "thanks for your input" or "cool...I'll think about that". Even if you think that person is full of shit and has no clue what they are talking about, you must remember that you are the one who asked for their opinion in the first place and you must accept (different from agree with) what they say to you. In telling me that you know how to take advice, you may have been just giving me your opinion back. The problem is that I didn't ask for it. If you honestly can't just accept a solicited opinion with a thank you, then stop asking for them.

Good luck.

[Asaf]

Since you have very bluntly asked, I will bluntly answer. And I do this out of respect. Because I feel that I have seen your skills more than anyone over the last year and because I have seen your progress. I actually think you have quite a bit of talent. Here are the two things that are getting in your way.

1) You need to broaden your range more consistently. For all the great scenes I have seen you do in my classes, I have also seen plenty where I have had to remind you of things, like your scene partner. You tend to create the world for you to play in, and these worlds often involve dark things, twisted things, or clever things. It makes your scene partners have to work harder to connect with you. I think this comes from you looking from outside of the scene while you are in it as to where you think the scenes need to go. I think you have learned a larger range of scene styles, but you are inconsistent with them and tend to those defaults too often. Many of the improvisers in this community try to broaden their range as often as possible.

2) Personal issues do not eliminate responsibility. I know you feel that Midnight Society kicked you out because of depression. I think you were kicked out for other reasons. I will speak from personal experience on this. My ex-wife was diagnosed as bipolar and was on several medications. She had mood swings, she had ab-reactions (flashbacks to traumas from her childhood), she had days when she could not leave the house. I did not divorce her for any of these reasons. I divorced her because she did not handle her situation responsibly. She would be feeling things and try to gloss over them as if nothing were wrong. She would go off her meds and not tell me until three days later when things got really bad. She would use her ailment as an excuse and a crutch.

I understand very well that you have things you are dealing with, but that in itself doesn't mean you don't have to take responsibility.

When you were in my Solo Improv class, you showed up an hour and a half late for a three hour class. When I would teach my Drop In class you would show up and not be willing to participate in some warm ups, opting instead to go get a drink. It was sometimes disruptive.

If you were in a group that I was directing and did that, I would not hesitate to address it with you, with the intention of removing you from the group if you did not change. I hazard a guess that similar things happened with MS.

I hope I am clear in my observations and that you take it with the idea that I mean you only the best.

I think you have talent, Z. I think you have to find a way to take care of these other things that are getting in the way of that talent.

[Spaztique]

In each of these instances, you are denying the opinion that you asked for. If you ask for an opinion, you can't dismiss it or refute it. People won't want to give you their opinions anymore. Instead, they might ignore you, blow you off, not want to perform with you, dismiss your opinions, question your abilities, find you immature, etc. You get my drift???

Got it. I'll take the note.

(stuff)

Note taken.

Thanks for the input, everyone. And I don't mean that in a condescending smartass way, either.

[arthursimone]

I agree 1000% with Asaf

You don't need to prove how smart and funny you are, we all know your talent. You do, however, need to tackle some personal demons and not let them affect your professionalism, courtesy, sense of play and willingness to learn.


I don't think anyone ever knows enough about improv to guarantee success or command respect; I went to college for acting, I've devoted myself to it professionally, I've studied at three different improv training centers, I've read as many books and taken as many workshops under the sun as I can have time for, and I still want more. Nobody is entitled to authority or friendship because of your resume, it is given freely by peers who want to share in what you have to say.

[Asaf]

I should add also that in the future you conside consulting with people directly rather than posting publicly. I for one would be glad to talk with you about these things.

[improvstitute]

I should add also that in the future you conside consulting with people directly rather than posting publicly. I for one would be glad to talk with you about these things.

couldn't agree more

[Dave]

When you give respect, Dave. You will get a lot back. I promise.

Like Asaf, I have had similar classroom disruptions from you...



During a Level 5 class (of which you were not a student) a few months back, you decided to drop in and crash it. Maybe you were there early for something else, but rather than politely wait outside, you decided to stay and watch. Fine. Although it was presumptuous to stay (or not ask if you could stay) I didn't mind because I thought it would be good for you to soak some stuff up. But you didn’t soak anything up. You actively acted bored and fidgeted, getting up and leaving and coming back. After you started rummaging through some stuff in the wings, I had to ask you to sit down and be quiet. You got up and left altogether.

I don't think you gave anyone of us in that room an ounce of respect, and it would be hard to return the favor.



Once when I had you in class, I asked everyone to recount for the people who had missed the previous week what they learned. You refused to a) sit up b) admit you had learned anything or c) recall anything we had done that was worthwhile. When I told you these were unacceptable answers, you left the class, came back 45 minutes later with a mountain dew and had a pretty good 1/2 hour. But the damage was certainly done. Why you ever have to leave a 2 hour class for frequent Valero runs is beyond me.

I don't think you gave anyone in that classroom respect and I have had a hard time getting over that afternoon.



Very frequently you sit at the very very front of an audience, (or at last week's Farce show: right next to the stage where the whole audience can see you) with pen in hand scribbling a review of the show as it is happening.
This is not only completely rude and unprofessional, but a very dickish move that likely steals attention from the performers and causes the audience to focus on you. If you want to post reviews, great...I love them. But sit in the back and write on small index cards like a professional reviewer. Not in a place where you can make sure everyone can see you too.

I don't think you give the audience or performers respect when you do this.



Very frequently you are the first in an audience to yell out a suggestion. And, Dave, I have been in a few of those shows. I think the suggestions you throw out sometimes are some of the hardest to improvise with. I think I had to do a show for you where the suggestion was "Anything". It was easily the worst Frank Mills show. I am not saying your suggestion was the reason. We definitely weren't feeling it that night. But I think improvisers, in general, should never yell out suggestions for a show…unless the audience isn't saying anything. And then, make it an easy one. Throw an underhand pitch to your improv brothers and sisters, especially if the audience is not in a warmed up mood.

I think you disrespect the paying audience when you do this.


Now add those anecdotes up, and it can get hard to trust you on stage, or off.

Regardless of your talent and drive (you have lots of both) Anyone of those instances would be enough to have anyone in those rooms full of people not want to take a chance with you in their light booth or their scene or their team. This is a trust based environment…and every time you stockpile some with me, you seem to have a knack for squandering it.

Start taking responsibility for your actions,
Realize that everything you do has repercussions.
Let your work speak for you, not your offstage antics.
It all adds up to equal you

....and continue to do the good work I’ve seen you do in ColdTowne classes.

By the way, I was taking classes and going to jams for 6 years before I got the respect I thought I deserved.
You are 19? 20?
Be patient. The force is strong in you, Dave. But right now, consider yourself an apprentice.
Take the time to learn your craft first and respect your colleagues firster.

[Spaztique]

(whole bunch of important stuff)

Note taken, signed, dealed, delivered, and soaked up like a sponge.