A Nuclear North Korea?

[Wesley]

What's everyone's take on this North Korea nuclear test?

I'm of mixed feelings. Do I trust N. Korea with nukes? Hell no. But I'm also a libertarian in that I believe every nation, just as every person, has a right to self-defense.
So is this self-defense? I don't know.

If treaties were broken, then accountability according to said treaty should be enforced, but should we really punish a society for developing technology we ourselves developed (and are still the only country to have ever used, mind you) decades ago?

So, if I don't trust Korea, why do I trust us? Well, despite having used two, the times were different and we did so to end a hellacious war. Then we rebuilt and allied with the country we attacked. And we have since, for more than 6 decades, sat on an arsenal numbering in the 10's of thousands and never used one again.
The great fear now is that a "rogue" or unstable state might use one to start a war, not end it (and I don't see them rebuilding who they attack). And times have changed. It is not the nation itself I fear, but the splinter groups and terroist cells that could get their hands on the technology as it is passed around between rogues states like N. Korea and Iran.

That's about all I got. Anyone else comfortable/uncomfortable with this change in N. Korea's official status from suspected of having nukes to conducting a probable test?

[Jastroch]

This is like teaching a poison snake how to use a hand gun. Whether or not we're being "hypcritical," we'd be really stupid not to try and stop this.

[Mike]

At this point, I am quite indifferent to the whole "North Korea has nukes".
It's not like there aren't nukes for sale by one or more of the former Soviet republics who splintered off after communism went bust. I believe it's easier to buy one than to make one, and I'm willing to bet a few nations are probably hiding a few nukes for good measure.

Korea has always been a mess. We stayed there way too long after the cease-fire. Most of the world gave up caring about communism in the 1980's. America is the only country who really still fears the communist 'menace'. Look at our relations with Cuba. Canada and Mexico trade with Cuba, as does most of Europe, yet we still embargo them on some antiquated principle. Our vision is flawed, and we have lost our way in the world.

Let North Korea have its nukes. I doubt they have the means to get one to the US, and I really doubt they have the resources to make them en masse. And if they want a fight, I am sure we can dust off our thousand or so warheads from the cold war and toss a few his way.

The world is changing. We aren't the powerhouse we once were, and good ol' G.W. makes us more of a joke with each passing day.
Time for us to circle the wagons and go back to worrying about ourselves. Let Europe, Israel, and all those other countries fend for themselves. It's time they stepped up and took their turn at taking care of the world. We need a rest.

[York99]

North Koreans are all evil.

[admin]

North Korea is one seriously fucked up country, insular and Stalinist in the extreme, run by a goofball who kidnaps Japanese directors to make films for him while his people gnaw bark off trees like starving deer. Kim Jong Il is a nutcase, but he's a nutcase with a totally punked and obedient populace, missiles, (possibly) nukes, and a paranoid streak a mile wide.

armscontrolwonk.com is reporting that the test was probably a dud because it's measuring in the ton range, not the 10-20kt range you'd expect for a nation's first fission bomb test. In 48-72 hours we'll know more as the radioactive gases (if any) leak out and by looking at the composition of the nuclides we should have an idea of the yield.

That said, Clinton mostly kept the lid on this pot during his tenure. I wasn't happy about bribing the Norks to abandon their nuclear aspirations, but it beats the hell out of having no strings to pull on them. Powell got the rug pulled out from under him by the neocons wrt negotiating with the DPRK; instead we get John "The 'Stache" Bolton playing hardball with a fucking nutcase. Another major Bush failure since a) the US has been all twitchy with Iran when they aren't nearly as far along in their nuke program, b) our military is being ground into dirt in Iraq and Afghanistan, and c) that military has been downsized from the "win-win in a two-front war" size in the Reagan-era, to "win-hold-win" size in the Bush I/Clinton years to Dubya's current strategy of "hold-hold-lose-lose."

Upshot: The US 8th Army in Korea is meant to be a speedbump once the KPA rolls across the DMZ towards Seoul, buying us time to mobilize and deploy a significant force to push the North Koreans back. We don't have enough military left to mobilize to meet a North Korean threat and despite being a nutcase, Kim Jong Il has to know this. Diplomacy is a black and slimy art, but it's absolutely necessary when dealing with nutcase Stalinist dictators with nuclear aspirations. Sadly, the Bush Administration has shat out every diplomatic bone in its body politic so we're left as defenseless as a sea sponge as a result of 5 years of criminal mismanagement.

So I'm heartened by knowing that the test was probably a dud and that the difference between an experimental 'device' and a deliverable combat-ready 'weapon' is several years and a lot of engineering effort, but I am still intensely worried that we have a delusional pissy incompetent and his coeterie of sycophants diddling about in the White House for the next 2 years. To quote Heavy Metal, "hangin's too good for him..."

[starkserious]

"Blowback" is a CIA term first used in March 1954 in a recently declassified report on the 1953 operation to overthrow the government of Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran. It is a metaphor for the unintended consequences of the US government's international activities that have been kept secret from the American people.

Well the Blowback from N. Korea, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Israel,...just pick a country that's been fucked up where we put our policies in effect and you'll see what I'm talking about. The "unintended consequences" are starting to add up now from years ago and the current mess we're in now is going to really impact us down the road. It's simple Cause/Effect. I'm not looking forward to what this is going to bring us especially given the inept administration and the scorched earth policies of the NeoCons. But as George Carline put it, "I'm just here to watch the show!" Should be damn entertaining.