obama

[mpbrockman]

...I don't know enough about the faith-based initiatives to comment...

Quick primer:

"Faith based initiatives" - allows the government to funnel tens of millions of taxpayer dollars directly to church groups, to be used more or less as they see fit.

On the surface, this can seem cool - many churches have structures in place for organization and distribution of say, relief efforts for disaster areas, food for the poor et al.

Problems:

-The federal government is in the position of deciding what constitutes a religion.
-Since churches are not bound by the same employment regs that other non-profits are, the feds are funding organizations who regularly violate the laws concerning discrimination in hiring.
-In a bizarre turnabout, if the feds attempt to monitor how the money is being spent - religions can scream "separation of church and state" and tell the feds it's none of their business.
-Funds end up being used to proselytize.
-Funds end up going to groups (like "Choose Life") operating in Africa that stress abstinence only and spread incomplete or false information regarding condoms and HIV.
-Funds end up spent on Bibles rather than, say, medicine.
-Funds spent for teaching scripture rather than oh, I don't know... MATH??? AGRICULTURAL TECHNIQUES???
-Funds go to drug treatment centers that have no medical component and no certified counselors, instead relying on prayer and religious conversion.
-Funds go to "de-gaying" centers like "Love in Action/Refuge".
-Funds go to the Assemblies of God run "Teen Challenge" program. Kiddie boot camps known for their abusiveness and for making the news once or twice a year when some troubled kid dies in their "care".

I could go on and on concerning actual and potential abuses, but the basic problem is this: craploads of taxpayer money being given with no strings attached to the government's favorite religious organizations when there are tons of deserving secular charities out there (i.e. Doctor's Without Borders) that are subject to regular non-profit laws and do their jobs without adding in the superstitious bullshit.

On a personal level - I'm just appalled that my application for a 1 million dollar grant to distribute Rice Krispies and teach the Holy Elvish Gospels of Snap! Crackle! and Pop! to the good people of the poor island nations throughout the South Pacific was rejected.

WWSCaPD?

On another forum I was told that Obama is "just saying what he had to in order to court evangelical votes" and that we'd see what he was really made of when he was in the White House. Sorry, but the "Just wait until you see him fly a real airplane" argument doesn't carry much weight with me.

This is just another thing that will make me listen a little harder to what McCain has to say.

[Jeff]

I've been saying this for many months, and I still say it: I can't wait to be jaded by President Obama.

[shando]

I've been saying this for many months, and I still say it: I can't wait to be jaded by President Obama.

Word to that. I just wish it weren't happening already.

[York99]

I've been saying this for many months, and I still say it: I can't wait to be jaded by President Obama.

Word to that. I just wish it weren't happening already.

Optimism FADING Fading fading

[mpbrockman]

Optimism FADING Fading fading

While at TCIF I wandered over to a market and overheard a conversation between an Eastern European cab driver and the market clerk. The driver was talking to the clerk about the number of Americans who are leaving the U.S. to find a better life.I can't find much info on this, but one source stated that 40 million Americans started the dual citizenship process last year (can that really be correct? - wow!)

It reminds me of the rambling concession speech that Mitt Romney gave in which he expressed concern that "without faith, America could become another Europe". I remember wondering what about Europe really stuck in his craw; the increasingly strong Euro? the higher literacy rates? the lower crime rates? (especially if we discount the areas most heavily populated by devout Muslim immigrants).

Maybe it's the soccer hooliganism...

Hmmm. Seems we could learn a few lessons from the old country.

Questions of religiosity and prosperity aside. When I look at the size of my generation (X) and think about the perpetually selfish boomers demanding their medicare benefits starting heavily in 2012, I wonder whether the emigres are Chicken Little cowards or prescient geniuses getting out while the getting is good.

Even giving Obama the benefit of the doubt and granting that he could actually bring change, reform and a renewed sense of optimism to the country. The current administration has done so much f***ing damage to this country on so many fronts - I'm not sure there's anybody who can turn it around. At least perhaps someday, given some perspective, we can thank the Bushies for giving us object lessons in everything the founding fathers tried to prevent.

So yes, Justin - optimism fading, but I wonder if there was any real cause for it in the first place.

[Jeff]

Optimism FADING Fading fading

So yes, Justin - optimism fading, but I wonder if there was any real cause for it in the first place.

I think optimism generally yields more satisfying results when it's directed at places other than the Presidents of the United States.

[York99]

A. the number of Americans who are leaving the U.S. to find a better life.

B. what about Europe really stuck in his craw; the increasingly strong Euro? the higher literacy rates? the lower crime rates?

C. Hmmm. Seems we could learn a few lessons from the old country.

D. The current administration has done so much f***ing damage to this country on so many fronts - I'm not sure there's anybody who can turn it around.

E. So yes, Justin - optimism fading, but I wonder if there was any real cause for it in the first place.

WHOA NELLY!!

This sounds like the Anti-Americanism talk that I always balk at Rush Limbaugh for talking about. I didn't think it actually existed. This is still the greatest country in the history of the world. We're not without our faults, but the net effect is that we're still WAY ahead of the game.

A. Not sure what this number is, but look at the number of people who are trying to get in... through legal and illegal means. WAY eclipses any other country in the world.

B. Maybe it was the Socialism that stifles innovation. Maybe it's the enormous taxes. Maybe it's the lack of true leadership on the world scale.

C. Of course we could learn some lessons from them. But to try and mimic them is a HUGE step backwards.

D. I don't remember who said it first, but it's sometimes attributed to Clinton: "What's right with America can fix what's wrong with America." The original quote is much more elegant, but I couldn't find it.

E. There may be little optimism that we're getting some radical change in the right* direction, but the outlook on America is still very positive. We're still the worldwide leader in many categories, including foreign aide, innovation, production, medical science, and hockey (take that, Canucks!).

*The direction that I and many other people on this board think is the right direction.

[BriHo]

I don't know why people would oppose funding for faith-based initiatives. They have to be used for secular purposes, secular groups get equal funding, prostelyzing precludes funding, and if any denomination excludes secular or separate denominations... they get no funding.

What Obama supports would actually help the poor. Bush's faith based funding was pandering and was not actually funded.

How could this be anything but a good thing? Sorry to butt in, but I'm sometimes puzzled by reactions like this.


FISA I'm a bit pissed about, but that's all on House Democrats and Sen. Rockefeller, not Obama... they should have pointed out that FISA never needed "fixing" since it never expired. What should Obama have done? Fillibustered? Said, "Fuck the Democrats?" I don't think that would have been very savvy.

[mpbrockman]

I don't know why people would oppose funding for faith-based initiatives.

See above, I can add to the list if you like.

They have to be used for secular purposes

Incorrect, again see above.

secular groups get equal funding

More or less correct - but secular groups are subject to federal oversight and laws regarding non-profits that religious organizations are not.

prostelyzing precludes funding and if any denomination excludes secular or separate denominations... they get no funding.

Again, simply incorrect. For a more in-depth look at the issue check here:

http://www.theocracywatch.org/faith_base.htm

How could this be anything but a good thing? Sorry to butt in, but I'm sometimes puzzled by reactions like this.

It uses tax dollars for pervasively religious programs, allows discriminatory hiring, gives preferential treatment to one religion over others, funds coercive conversion efforts and basically ignores the whole notion of a separation between church and state. This doesn't disturb some, but for the decidedly secularist - this is beyond appalling.

[mpbrockman]

A. the number of Americans who are leaving the U.S. to find a better life.

B. what about Europe really stuck in his craw; the increasingly strong Euro? the higher literacy rates? the lower crime rates?

C. Hmmm. Seems we could learn a few lessons from the old country.

D. The current administration has done so much f***ing damage to this country on so many fronts - I'm not sure there's anybody who can turn it around.

E. So yes, Justin - optimism fading, but I wonder if there was any real cause for it in the first place.

WHOA NELLY!!

This sounds like the Anti-Americanism talk that I always balk at Rush Limbaugh for talking about. I didn't think it actually existed. This is still the greatest country in the history of the world. We're not without our faults, but the net effect is that we're still WAY ahead of the game.

A. Not sure what this number is, but look at the number of people who are trying to get in... through legal and illegal means. WAY eclipses any other country in the world.

B. Maybe it was the Socialism that stifles innovation. Maybe it's the enormous taxes. Maybe it's the lack of true leadership on the world scale.

C. Of course we could learn some lessons from them. But to try and mimic them is a HUGE step backwards.

D. I don't remember who said it first, but it's sometimes attributed to Clinton: "What's right with America can fix what's wrong with America." The original quote is much more elegant, but I couldn't find it.

E. There may be little optimism that we're getting some radical change in the right* direction, but the outlook on America is still very positive. We're still the worldwide leader in many categories, including foreign aide, innovation, production, medical science, and hockey (take that, Canucks!).

*The direction that I and many other people on this board think is the right direction.

Wow, Justin. With your talent for editing, embellishing and recontextualizing there should be a job in media for you somewhere. Nonetheless - point by point:

A) This was part of a discussion I overheard (as mentioned above). I found it interesting enough to try to find a little data. What I found would seem to support the idea that an increasing number of America's best and brightest are looking for opportunities elsewhere. The number of people trying to get into this country is irrelevant to this observation.

B) Perhaps. So, in context of what I wrote above, would you interpret Romney's speech as meaning that strong religious faith can prevent creeping socialism, higher taxes and improve our standing as world leaders?

C) OK, so we basically agree, but I can't seem to find the bit where I used the word "mimic".

D) A truly elegant quote - and uncharacteristically optimistic of you. I can only hope you're right, and I wish I shared your optimism. I could go off on a long digression here involving numbers and projections and give you plenty of reasons for pessimism, or one on prevailing American attitudes, priorities, mores and thought and tell you why I feel decreasingly proud to be a member of the "greatest nation in the world" - a moniker which is highly debatable on several fronts - but to do so makes me by turns sad and angry. I'll spare myself this morning.

E) "We're still the worldwide leader in many categories". Does this not strike you as a statement tinged with slight desperation? Rather like "Hey, the Falklands are still British" or "Hey, I can still use one hand". Incidentally, while the U.S. leads in total dollars spent on foreign aid, as a percentage of GDP the U.S. ranks 21th out the the 22 wealthiest nations according to the OECD. Norway kicks our ass in the generosity department.

Believe it or not, I'm not at all anti-American (and Rush Limbaugh thinks anybody who disagrees with him is "anti-American"). I still hold that our (sadly battered) Constitution was the work of capable men with an extraordinary vision. I also know that reading said document and then watching a few hours of cable news is not a warming experience - and I don't think it's unreasonable to at least speculate that we may well be witnessing America's decline.

Honestly, I think the wind went out of my sails when Bush got re-elected. Once, a mistake. Twice?! I wandered around for months wondering when the land of the free and the home of the brave became the wingnut sanctuary.

[BriHo]

Theocracy watch aside, as a decided secularist myself, I'm a bit surprised that you simply would use an appeal to force as a replacement for a refutation.

Again, and this is from Obama, Salon.com, NPR, the AP, and the straight up nuts-and-bolts provisions: the federal funds can only be used for SECULAR purposes, those that discriminate ("you're a Catholic or atheist so you don't get to work or receive funds") don't get funds, those that try to convert don't get funds... so where is the problem?

Also, I believe you said earlier that this in some way interferes with the establishment clause. Considering these go to Judeo-Christian, Sheik, Islamic, and straight up non-denominational secular groups, how is this establishing an official religion?

As a secularist that nonetheless heavily believes in social programs that work, as well as a Democrat that would like to start winning elections with a good conscience, I simply don't see why people would have problems with this.

[BriHo]

EDIT!

[nadine]

First: on the bright people moving into this country.. more and more I'm meeting Indians and Chinese people who are considering returning to their country because of economic opportunities being better there.

Also, my friend is moving to Canada because he's disagreeing with the politics here.

Not that real life examples are proof of anything, but it's only something I've seen in the last few years.

And I still think America is a great country. But doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of the problems and try to fix it. The economy is in a really bad shape, we're not renewing green-energy initiatives, and the solution to the high oil prices is to give summer discounts. Young Americans are finding it harder to get a start in life, many don't even have money to contribute to future retirements.

That said, I still love this place. And really don't want to see things worse.

Also: On Obama. I am already getting jaded and I feel really frustrated. But my Republican friend said: Don't worry, Nadine. He's still a Democrat, and will vote like Democrats. Right now he needs to cater to the middle/swing voters, but once that's over. He'll go back to his corner and vote like a Democrat.

[BriHo]

What do you mean by summer discounts on oil? You aren't talking gas tax are you?


I love my country, I am just disappointed by how it operates. Its pretty much a bunch of people screaming at each other about whether there SHOULD be a debate, rather than debating and coming to a solution.


Or, they just offer shitty solutions, and then when the other side doesn't pick it up, attack them.


Then again, I've also lived in Europe and Asia, and its they aren't exactly coming up roses either.

[nadine]

What do you mean by summer discounts on oil? You aren't talking gas tax are you?

Yeah, the proposed removal of gas tax just for the summer.

Obama was against it though.