Dramatic Improv

[Jastroch]

Fine points all of them.

I want to be reiterate that I wasn't trying to dis anyone's show. I'm sorry if it came across like that. Or if a poor choice of phrasing led you to believe I was talking about your show.

I think emotional commitment to character and relationships is the ultimate source of comedy. It's what I teach and preach in improv and sketch. Scripted or improvised material that lacks that depth are just bits. And bits get tired.

The only thing I would mention in regards to this conversation is that its entirely possible to have grounded characters and real, committed relationships on stage in nutty contexts. . It's also possible to have completely superficial relationships in a grounded reality.

My theory is that dramatic elements stem from characters developing and learning and changing from their experiences. Comedy is when those characters don't learn or change or develop from their experiences... in fact their character traits become more pronounced in spite of what happens to them on stage. In fact the whole premise of Seinfeld was that nothing ever happens. The last episode, as I recall, focused entirely on the fact that despite their many adventures, no one in that show changed a lick.

That's why I think this might be the most comical presiential administration in history.

[Wesley]

I want to be reiterate that I wasn't trying to dis anyone's show. I'm sorry if it came across like that. Or if a poor choice of phrasing led you to believe I was talking about your show.

No, no. I thought no such thing.

However, I have said that very thing to some people recently and wanted to clarify that I didn't simply mean "no laughs" = "drama." It was much more than that, even though all I said was "I loved doing shows with no laughs."

Also, I love any excuse to toot my own horn. All you did is give me the opening to do so.

[smerlin]

To workshop dramatic improv, my 2 cents:

I would find a dramatic piece that inspired me and try to re-improvise it, either a piece or its entirety. Then debrief it afterwards and see what was different, hard, etc.

Kind of like Christina said, I might focus on a genre and map out the beats, character types, locations, tropes, etc.

In my improv, things can get more dramatic when: things are important to my characters, when there is cover or subtext that prevents me from being as obvious or straightforward as I would be normally, or when there is dramatic irony. Also, when scene starts are clear and initiated by one person, there is less likely to be those "comedic accidents" (I'm fly fishing inside a Walmart!) that can be fun in comedic improv, but can derail dramatic improv.

[Marc Majcher]

My theory is that dramatic elements stem from characters developing and learning and changing from their experiences. Comedy is when those characters don't learn or change or develop from their experiences... in fact their character traits become more pronounced in spite of what happens to them on stage. In fact the whole premise of Seinfeld was that nothing ever happens. The last episode, as I recall, focused entirely on the fact that despite their many adventures, no one in that show changed a lick.

I was just about to post almost exactly this exact same thing in the other thread. Theory: confirmed!

[York99]

Again, late to the party here.

This was in another thread and I will echo what I said there.

Look at 3 For All / Double Feature from last year's OoB. They did improv that had no comedic "aim" (at least for the DF show on Monday). Sure there were funny parts, but that's almost inevitable with improv.

As an improviser, I was riveted. As an audience member, I was bored at a story I really didn't care about. They are such tremendous improvisers that it looked almost scripted like a play performed by top-notch thespians. The problem is that it was a play I didn't care for.

With comedic narrative improv, if the story sucks then at least there were some laughs to make it worth while. With dramatic improv, if it sucks, once the thrill of the "gimmick" of improv wears off, you're just left with a crappy play.

[kbadr]

So your technique suggestion would be: "don't do a crappy story." Got it.

[York99]

So your technique suggestion would be: "don't do a crappy story." Got it.

I'm not offering a technique suggestion. I'm offering a warning. Don't not do something because it's difficult. But before you ask a paying audience of non-theatre folk to sit through your show, realize that these extremely talented and experienced improvisers/actors ultimately had a bland play in my humble opionion/observation. I'm only one person, though.

food for thought, whatever that means

[Roy Janik]

I'm not offering a technique suggestion. I'm offering a warning. Don't not do something because it's difficult. But before you ask a paying audience of non-theatre folk to sit through your show, realize that these extremely talented and experienced improvisers/actors ultimately had a bland play in my humble opionion/observation. I'm only one person, though.

Yeah, you've expressed that before, and your point is taken. I loved both shows, and wasn't bored at all. Differences of opinion, which is fine.

But as I said when I started this thread, I didn't want this discussion to be about that. We can and have discussed the merits/pitfalls of dramatic improv before. But this thread is more like...

Assuming you're going to try and do something more dramatic, improv-wise, how would you go about it?

[York99]

I'm not offering a technique suggestion. I'm offering a warning. Don't not do something because it's difficult. But before you ask a paying audience of non-theatre folk to sit through your show, realize that these extremely talented and experienced improvisers/actors ultimately had a bland play in my humble opionion/observation. I'm only one person, though.

Yeah, you've expressed that before, and your point is taken. I loved both shows, and wasn't bored at all. Differences of opinion, which is fine.

But as I said when I started this thread, I didn't want this discussion to be about that. We can and have discussed the merits/pitfalls of dramatic improv before. But this thread is more like...

Assuming you're going to try and do something more dramatic, improv-wise, how would you go about it?

Well, since comedy most often lies in the gap between "reality" and a "skewed reality," then it stands to reason that one approach -- or one facet of the approach -- might be to refrain from making choices that are outside of "reality."

[York99]

Been thinking about this and a thought occurred to me: Just like the note for comic improv is "don't try to be funny," a good note for dramatic improv might be "don't try to be dramatic."

I think that disingenuousness and manufactured drama make the piece flimsy and don't give the audience a reason to care about the characters.

[Roy Janik]

Been thinking about this and a thought occurred to me: Just like the note for comic improv is "don't try to be funny," a good note for dramatic improv might be "don't try to be dramatic."

I think that disingenuousness and manufactured drama make the piece flimsy and don't give the audience a reason to care about the characters.

Yes. Good insight, there. Whatever happens, the emotions and the situations should make sense for the characters.

[York99]

Also, coincidentally, I went to lunch and was reading the chapter "The Comic Throughline" in John Vorhaus' "The Comic Toolbox" and came across these quotes:

"... the difference between comedy and drama is a matter of exaggeration, perspective, inappropriate responses, and the wide gap of the comic premise."

He's making a point about stories, so the quote continues with:
"But these differences are of tone, not structure. About the only place that comic structure veers away from dramatic structure is in the matter of endings..." "Whether your story is comic or serious, it has to work first as a story." "...what makes us funny -- a knack for comic invention -- doesn't necessarily help us cope with the rigors and disciplines of storytelling."

[apiaryist]

I've been thinking about posting this, but I really haven't seen many of his movies. John Cassavetes' movies were almost completely improvised. People either hated or loved his work. I can't deny that they were highly effective at getting a strong response from his audience. Many famous "actor's filmmakers' used dramatic improv in various forms in their movies. You might find some insight by studying their techniques.

My personal take is that if you can create compelling comedy with improv, then nothing's stopping you from creating compelling drama.

[York99]

John Cassavetes' movies...

Had to IMDb him and realized I never saw one of his movies.

Interesting thing I just learned: There was a movie in 1981 called "Whose Life is it Anyway?" Sound familiar? Me neither.

[HerrHerr]

John Cassavetes' movies

Watch Faces.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062952/

Also check out early Altman movies. M*A*S*H, Nashville. Lots of improvised dialogue. Drama and Comedy rolled into one package.