The period of mourning is over...
If you must!
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- Brian Boyko Offline
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- phlounderphil Offline
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You're all looking at this in the wrong way...
1. Republicans didn't do this. The two-party system is bullshit and we all know it. This had nothing to do with republicans or democrats, this had to do with people in power. People in power will definitely kill innocent people to stay in power, it's been happening for thousands of years.
2. Of course it takes a lot of people staying quiet to pull off something like this. But consider this, there are countless things going on in our world that require a large group of people to remain quiet, and usually, those plans are successful. The masons? How much do we actually know about their organization and their rituals? Very little. In fact, most masonic acts and rituals aren't even common public knowledge, a large segment of the public doesn't even know who/what masons ARE! However, there are tens of thousands of them. They've all stayed quiet, miraculously. AND, those masons that have stepped forward have either been silenced, trivialized, or simply forgotten. Pulling off 9/11 would require much less people than there are masons in this country. People LIKE to keep secrets if they see themselves gaining from it.
3. There were thousands of different reports of what happened, many of them are contradictory, this could mean two things...either people were confused, or people were making shit up. This happened with the attack on the pentagon as well, there were many different accounts of what happened. However, nobody has still disproven ANY of my claims. You're only making further assumptions.
Here are my main points, when someone DIRECTLY refutes these points, then they'll begin convincing of their argument.
On 9/11 three steel buildings collapsed from fires. These are the only three steel skyscrapers in history to collapse simply from fires. Yes, two of these buildings were hit by planes. However, only one of the buildings was hit head on by a plane. The second plane only struck the southwest corner of the building and did NOT strike any of the 6 central supports of the building. Also, the planes hit the buildings above the 90th floor. The World Trade Center towers had stood for almost 30 years, not because of anything ABOVE the 90th floor, but because their supports are buried deep within the strong bedrock of manhattan island, for 30 years these buildings held their own weight, and even a bombing of their CENTRAL SUPPORT SYSTEM at the bottom of the building could not topple one, but a plane that weighs a fraction of what these buildings weighed had enough force to break the foundation of the building, causing them to fall. And what about the third building? A plane didn't hit that one. Yet it collapsed. In fact, on PBS, publically, the owner of the building mentioned making the decision to "pull" the building, "pull" is a term used by demolitions teams, meaning, to demolish a building. Why has he not explained the meaning behind his words? There are hundreds of reports, and video footage of secondary explosions. It's tough for 100s of people and several cameras to ALL be wrong. What about the damage in the lobby? Are you expecting me to believe that a fire hundreds of feet above ripped apart the lobby in less than an hour? Demolished areas of the basement in less than an hour? There are photos of these areas, go look them up, the damage is not consistent with the story. Furthermore, what about the Pentagon? The government refuses to issue any tapes of the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon, even though there were multiple security and traffic cameras that caught the event. In fact, moments after the event, the FBI was at a hotel across the street, obtaining the security camera tapes and informing the employees NOT to discuss what they had seen.
Open your eyes. Something is being hidden here.
Problem is, Americans are too apathetic and ignorant to care. Great, your apathy and ignorance, your willingness to accept beliefs that are commonly held is what is holding this country back. Evolution was just a theory, the earth being round was a theory. Everything is a theory when we have so little actual evidence of the truth. I've researched this extensively, this isn't just some theory, this is a complex idea, but much simpler than other would make it seem.
Here's a brief introduction into some of the widely believed ideas that there is SOMETHING wrong with the popular story about the events of 9/11. Check it out if you have an hour of time to spare. If you don't learn anything from it, or it doesn't at least make you question your own assumptions, at least you got to hear some pretty cool music.
Anyways. I love talking about this, but yet again, by using the words "conspiracy theory" you are only hurting yourself.
1. Republicans didn't do this. The two-party system is bullshit and we all know it. This had nothing to do with republicans or democrats, this had to do with people in power. People in power will definitely kill innocent people to stay in power, it's been happening for thousands of years.
2. Of course it takes a lot of people staying quiet to pull off something like this. But consider this, there are countless things going on in our world that require a large group of people to remain quiet, and usually, those plans are successful. The masons? How much do we actually know about their organization and their rituals? Very little. In fact, most masonic acts and rituals aren't even common public knowledge, a large segment of the public doesn't even know who/what masons ARE! However, there are tens of thousands of them. They've all stayed quiet, miraculously. AND, those masons that have stepped forward have either been silenced, trivialized, or simply forgotten. Pulling off 9/11 would require much less people than there are masons in this country. People LIKE to keep secrets if they see themselves gaining from it.
3. There were thousands of different reports of what happened, many of them are contradictory, this could mean two things...either people were confused, or people were making shit up. This happened with the attack on the pentagon as well, there were many different accounts of what happened. However, nobody has still disproven ANY of my claims. You're only making further assumptions.
Here are my main points, when someone DIRECTLY refutes these points, then they'll begin convincing of their argument.
On 9/11 three steel buildings collapsed from fires. These are the only three steel skyscrapers in history to collapse simply from fires. Yes, two of these buildings were hit by planes. However, only one of the buildings was hit head on by a plane. The second plane only struck the southwest corner of the building and did NOT strike any of the 6 central supports of the building. Also, the planes hit the buildings above the 90th floor. The World Trade Center towers had stood for almost 30 years, not because of anything ABOVE the 90th floor, but because their supports are buried deep within the strong bedrock of manhattan island, for 30 years these buildings held their own weight, and even a bombing of their CENTRAL SUPPORT SYSTEM at the bottom of the building could not topple one, but a plane that weighs a fraction of what these buildings weighed had enough force to break the foundation of the building, causing them to fall. And what about the third building? A plane didn't hit that one. Yet it collapsed. In fact, on PBS, publically, the owner of the building mentioned making the decision to "pull" the building, "pull" is a term used by demolitions teams, meaning, to demolish a building. Why has he not explained the meaning behind his words? There are hundreds of reports, and video footage of secondary explosions. It's tough for 100s of people and several cameras to ALL be wrong. What about the damage in the lobby? Are you expecting me to believe that a fire hundreds of feet above ripped apart the lobby in less than an hour? Demolished areas of the basement in less than an hour? There are photos of these areas, go look them up, the damage is not consistent with the story. Furthermore, what about the Pentagon? The government refuses to issue any tapes of the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon, even though there were multiple security and traffic cameras that caught the event. In fact, moments after the event, the FBI was at a hotel across the street, obtaining the security camera tapes and informing the employees NOT to discuss what they had seen.
Open your eyes. Something is being hidden here.
Problem is, Americans are too apathetic and ignorant to care. Great, your apathy and ignorance, your willingness to accept beliefs that are commonly held is what is holding this country back. Evolution was just a theory, the earth being round was a theory. Everything is a theory when we have so little actual evidence of the truth. I've researched this extensively, this isn't just some theory, this is a complex idea, but much simpler than other would make it seem.
Here's a brief introduction into some of the widely believed ideas that there is SOMETHING wrong with the popular story about the events of 9/11. Check it out if you have an hour of time to spare. If you don't learn anything from it, or it doesn't at least make you question your own assumptions, at least you got to hear some pretty cool music.
Anyways. I love talking about this, but yet again, by using the words "conspiracy theory" you are only hurting yourself.
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- Evilpandabear Offline
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spoken like a true conspiracy theorist. you probably believe that the us faked the moon landing too. sigh....phlounderphil wrote:...However, nobody has still disproven ANY of my claims. You're only making further assumptions...
"Anyone can teach improv. It's bullshit." -Andy Crouch on June 4th 11:33pm CST
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- phlounderphil Offline
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- Joined: August 15th, 2005, 3:07 am
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Actually. I don't think anything about the moon landing.
I don't think anything about JFK.
I'm NOT a conspiracy theorist, I'm a fucking realist, and not a single person disproved ANY of my claims.
I'm too young to be as stubborn and set-in-my-ways as the rest of you are, so right now, I'm just exploring the world and finding my own truth, got a problem with that?
Also, unlike a conspiracy theorist, I don't give a shit about anything that's happened in the past, I give a shit about what's happening in the now. Our government treats us like fancy cattle (can you deny that?) Our rights are already dying or in jeopardy (can you deny that?) Our government has already lied to us about a war in Iraq, the timetable for capturing Osama Bin Laden, our corporations lie to us about their budgets and their profits. How hard is it to believe that there aren't some other lies out there? huh?
I'm a cynic, a realist, and a thinker.
I research and I do not assume.
I challenge you (rather than labeling me) to approach me and prove me wrong. Alright. Your comment was pointless.
I don't think anything about JFK.
I'm NOT a conspiracy theorist, I'm a fucking realist, and not a single person disproved ANY of my claims.
I'm too young to be as stubborn and set-in-my-ways as the rest of you are, so right now, I'm just exploring the world and finding my own truth, got a problem with that?
Also, unlike a conspiracy theorist, I don't give a shit about anything that's happened in the past, I give a shit about what's happening in the now. Our government treats us like fancy cattle (can you deny that?) Our rights are already dying or in jeopardy (can you deny that?) Our government has already lied to us about a war in Iraq, the timetable for capturing Osama Bin Laden, our corporations lie to us about their budgets and their profits. How hard is it to believe that there aren't some other lies out there? huh?
I'm a cynic, a realist, and a thinker.
I research and I do not assume.
I challenge you (rather than labeling me) to approach me and prove me wrong. Alright. Your comment was pointless.
I don't believe Bush engineered 9/11, but I believe he knew and let it happen.
That is more plausible than those that believe the administration fired missiles into the Pentagon and wired secondary explosives throughout the WTC buildings, etc. Having an intelligence report and ignoring it is far different than actively causing it.
But consider this, there are countless things going on in our world that require a large group of people to remain quiet, and usually, those plans are successful. The masons? How much do we actually know about their organization and their rituals?
Tubal Cain. 'nuff said.
(On a side note: If people keep silent, how can we possibly know if those plans a) were premeditated plans and b) were successful?)
Actually, we do know a LOT about them and their "rituals" because they don't remain quiet (hell, you can read a lot about them in the public library OR on the dollar bill in your pocket if you know how...) Besides, there is a big difference in the "secrecy" of a social society of drunken frat boys and the destruction of several landmarks and the death of 3000+ innocent people. I could keep our troupe games secret pretty easy, but if the troupe set off a nuclear bomb under Mt. Rushmore and killed 1000 boy scouts on jamboree, I might find that harder to stay quiet about (I'm not saying don't do it, just don't tell me you are going to do it).
There were thousands of different reports of what happened, many of them are contradictory, this could mean two things...either people were confused, or people were making shit up.
A jumbo jet smashes into your building and engulfs several floors in fire. People are panicking to get out. The power goes out and it is dark. There are firefighters running up the stairs, the elevators are shut down, there cops in the lobby shouting orders as debris rains down and smoke blackens the sky. Another building is hit. You see and hear people falling to their death from 100 stories up to escape the fires. Before you are even a few blocks away your office comes crashing down.
Might there not be a possibility that you would be confused, subjected to mass panic and hysteria, hell, even tainted by anger and fear? That you think you heard things you didn't or misread what you heard? I don't doubt at all that there were multiple "explosions," I am just betting they came from bursting water pipes, pneumatic elevators parts, falling elevators, strained and popping structural elements, and power rooms with fuses and monitors.
However, nobody has still disproven ANY of my claims. You're only making further assumptions.
Nor have you proven any of them--and let's be honest, your explanations require a larger leap of faith and logic than just accepting what seems to have happened. There have been explanations for just about everything you mentioned. And on most, the arguments themselves don't even make sense. A shadowy government organization did this, but they allowed the owner to make a statement on PBS (a public, government owned outlet) about pulling the building? And no steel buildings collapsed from fire? What steel buildings ever had fire and structural damage like this before? The physics and engineering reasons for the collapse are provided all over the place and are scientifically sound.
Maybe you are spot on, but it is far more difficult for me to buy into. (Especially when so many of the sites on the subject use the same boilerplate text as if it was fed to them and critique things like the FEMA report for being "imcomplete" and "purposely avoiding critical information" (like building blueprints) all while presenting their information in the EXACT SAME WAY. How can a site that doesn't use the quotes from the firemen on the ground who said they didn't see, hear, feel, suspect bombs, attack anyone else for being incomplete or manipulative? I have yet to find a site that intellectually looks at both arguments and judges which one is the more likely. Most are conspiracy-laden drivel or pro-government, anti-terror propaganda.)
I think people, both directly and indirectly involved, jumped at shadows and misread their environment. Everyone saw their own personal boogeyman in 9/11. Some blamed Muslims and arabs. Muslims and arabs blamed the jews and spread stories of jews being pre-alerted. Some blamed the government and saw their hand in what transpired. I think this situation was simply prime for people seeing what they want to see.
The most plausible 9/11 theory I can buy into is that the government shot down that plane over Pennsylvania. I'm 80% convinced that they did, actually.
Oh, and the theory that there is a conspiracy afoot to keep people thinking about conspiracies.
That is more plausible than those that believe the administration fired missiles into the Pentagon and wired secondary explosives throughout the WTC buildings, etc. Having an intelligence report and ignoring it is far different than actively causing it.
But consider this, there are countless things going on in our world that require a large group of people to remain quiet, and usually, those plans are successful. The masons? How much do we actually know about their organization and their rituals?
Tubal Cain. 'nuff said.
(On a side note: If people keep silent, how can we possibly know if those plans a) were premeditated plans and b) were successful?)
Actually, we do know a LOT about them and their "rituals" because they don't remain quiet (hell, you can read a lot about them in the public library OR on the dollar bill in your pocket if you know how...) Besides, there is a big difference in the "secrecy" of a social society of drunken frat boys and the destruction of several landmarks and the death of 3000+ innocent people. I could keep our troupe games secret pretty easy, but if the troupe set off a nuclear bomb under Mt. Rushmore and killed 1000 boy scouts on jamboree, I might find that harder to stay quiet about (I'm not saying don't do it, just don't tell me you are going to do it).
There were thousands of different reports of what happened, many of them are contradictory, this could mean two things...either people were confused, or people were making shit up.
A jumbo jet smashes into your building and engulfs several floors in fire. People are panicking to get out. The power goes out and it is dark. There are firefighters running up the stairs, the elevators are shut down, there cops in the lobby shouting orders as debris rains down and smoke blackens the sky. Another building is hit. You see and hear people falling to their death from 100 stories up to escape the fires. Before you are even a few blocks away your office comes crashing down.
Might there not be a possibility that you would be confused, subjected to mass panic and hysteria, hell, even tainted by anger and fear? That you think you heard things you didn't or misread what you heard? I don't doubt at all that there were multiple "explosions," I am just betting they came from bursting water pipes, pneumatic elevators parts, falling elevators, strained and popping structural elements, and power rooms with fuses and monitors.
However, nobody has still disproven ANY of my claims. You're only making further assumptions.
Nor have you proven any of them--and let's be honest, your explanations require a larger leap of faith and logic than just accepting what seems to have happened. There have been explanations for just about everything you mentioned. And on most, the arguments themselves don't even make sense. A shadowy government organization did this, but they allowed the owner to make a statement on PBS (a public, government owned outlet) about pulling the building? And no steel buildings collapsed from fire? What steel buildings ever had fire and structural damage like this before? The physics and engineering reasons for the collapse are provided all over the place and are scientifically sound.
Maybe you are spot on, but it is far more difficult for me to buy into. (Especially when so many of the sites on the subject use the same boilerplate text as if it was fed to them and critique things like the FEMA report for being "imcomplete" and "purposely avoiding critical information" (like building blueprints) all while presenting their information in the EXACT SAME WAY. How can a site that doesn't use the quotes from the firemen on the ground who said they didn't see, hear, feel, suspect bombs, attack anyone else for being incomplete or manipulative? I have yet to find a site that intellectually looks at both arguments and judges which one is the more likely. Most are conspiracy-laden drivel or pro-government, anti-terror propaganda.)
I think people, both directly and indirectly involved, jumped at shadows and misread their environment. Everyone saw their own personal boogeyman in 9/11. Some blamed Muslims and arabs. Muslims and arabs blamed the jews and spread stories of jews being pre-alerted. Some blamed the government and saw their hand in what transpired. I think this situation was simply prime for people seeing what they want to see.
The most plausible 9/11 theory I can buy into is that the government shot down that plane over Pennsylvania. I'm 80% convinced that they did, actually.
Oh, and the theory that there is a conspiracy afoot to keep people thinking about conspiracies.
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- phlounderphil Offline
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You make a lot of valid points Wes.
Still, I guess it's a difference of personal opinion (probably because I'm smarter!). I think it's much easier to believe that our government had a hand in this. There was too much to gain, the plausability of 19 amateurs with little or no flying experience pulling off something this massive and successful seems as unbelievable to me as the government being behind it seems to you.
Also, there have been many steel buildings that have suffered EXTENSIVE fire damage in the past. Not a single one of them collapsed. more info here. Maybe it was an ELABORATE terrorist plot involving the Saudi government? Perhaps it was a terrorist attack orchestrated by Osama Bin Laden (with the help of some in the United States), perhaps it was the US government the entire time, or in fact, the story is exactly as we know.
All I am saying is. There are too many questions here, and not enough definite answers. Unreleased videos, numerous conflicting reports, etc. Too many questions, not enough answers.
When the government provides some ACTUAL answers (perhaps in years when thins are more declassified), I'll change my mind. Right now, I don't believe anything for sure, EXCEPT that such a horrendous act like this demands some speculation. And I'm sick of people who believe that questioning the motives/people behind 9/11 is disrespectful to those who died.
Also, Wes, you're a hard-working guy, and I don't even believe that 19 clones of you could pull off something so massive. The lone gunman theory is always one riddled with bullet-holes (GET IT?). One person would have to have a fucking load of motivation to work so hard to pull off something so deadly and successful.
Still, I guess it's a difference of personal opinion (probably because I'm smarter!). I think it's much easier to believe that our government had a hand in this. There was too much to gain, the plausability of 19 amateurs with little or no flying experience pulling off something this massive and successful seems as unbelievable to me as the government being behind it seems to you.
Also, there have been many steel buildings that have suffered EXTENSIVE fire damage in the past. Not a single one of them collapsed. more info here. Maybe it was an ELABORATE terrorist plot involving the Saudi government? Perhaps it was a terrorist attack orchestrated by Osama Bin Laden (with the help of some in the United States), perhaps it was the US government the entire time, or in fact, the story is exactly as we know.
All I am saying is. There are too many questions here, and not enough definite answers. Unreleased videos, numerous conflicting reports, etc. Too many questions, not enough answers.
When the government provides some ACTUAL answers (perhaps in years when thins are more declassified), I'll change my mind. Right now, I don't believe anything for sure, EXCEPT that such a horrendous act like this demands some speculation. And I'm sick of people who believe that questioning the motives/people behind 9/11 is disrespectful to those who died.
Also, Wes, you're a hard-working guy, and I don't even believe that 19 clones of you could pull off something so massive. The lone gunman theory is always one riddled with bullet-holes (GET IT?). One person would have to have a fucking load of motivation to work so hard to pull off something so deadly and successful.