Porn for Bibles

[PyroDan]

I am not atheist, but I don't begrudge anyone their own beliefs. I believe in God as a higher power, and the greatest gift bestowed upon us has been free will.

I think most people have no belief or are agnostic because they are rational intelligent beings. I have never doubted their intelligence, just had distaste for some arrogance. Many people that identify as Christian or other faiths have also been as arrogant, which is equally distasteful.

I had a discussion the other day with my grandmother, a very devout, ordained Christian. She told me that for years she prayed for God to make things happen in her life, and sometimes her prayers where answered and sometimes not, and after years of this she came to a realization. God's gift on earth is peace in your heart, and from that peace grows every bit of good. From that comes compassion and patience, because peace promotes so much. God won't give you a new car, or a better job, but moves mountains of the heart.

I thought that summed up a need for faith and belief pretty well. Most people garner their perception of any 'higher power' in the works/deeds of that power's followers and I would say searching for anything through mankind is going to be disappointing in most instances.

I wonder if the atheist group would have accepted Greek Mythology textbooks.

[mpbrockman]

So much to respond to:

Dan: I disagree. Publicity (even silly publicity) lets other "closeted" atheists know they're not alone. Raised in a religious household and as a student at a Jesuit high school, it wasn't until relatively late in life that I realized my inability to buy into a system of religious belief didn't mean something was "wrong" with me or something to be ashamed of. Even with the popular neo-atheism movement led by guys like Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Barker, Hitchens et al there's still a stigma one must overcome. This kind of event may not promote a specific idea, but I think it does serve a useful purpose.

P.S. Just saw your last post. Agreed on the distaste for arrogance on both sides. However, the idea of free will as a gift from god leads us straight into the problem of theodicy, and "peace in your heart" is something that, in my experience, comes from within (and over time) - not from an external agency.

Kareem: I love the "let's be absurd" approach myself; but as long as there are hate-mongering assholes like say, AFR's Bryan Fischer and anti church/state separation factions within our government out there - atheists need people who can fight fire with fire (rhetorically speaking). Sometimes, although it's my favorite tactic, "laugh & point" isn't enough.

Jordan & Jesse: First, let's draw the distinction between "idiots" and people holding dubious sets of ideas. Secondly, there are plenty of each on both sides. Until recently I used to mod a high traffic atheist forum. Atheists spend as much time calling each other idiots as they do calling people of faith idiots (it's a favorite pastime among what tends to be a set of highly individualistic thinkers). What was usually respected most was the ability to take a position and defend it well with facts, reason and well-crafted rhetoric. This applied to xtians and atheists alike. Yes, there were xtians on our boards - but the minute they pulled out a line of "reasoning" like "Because the Bible sez..." they would be disemboweled online. The ones who survived were the ones who could defend themselves.

Jordan & Dan: Question for you. I have always wondered why self-proclaimed xtains don't go Jesus-at-the-Temple on the hate-mongers within their own ranks rather than wasting time demonizing those who simply lack belief. Don't you think the outspoken conservative fundies within the ranks presuming to speak for the mainstream do more damage to xtianity than a few college kids exchanging copies of "Juggs" for Bibles; and don't religious moderates give the extremists philosophical and political cover by not loudly and publicly repudiating them?

Jesse: Silly boy, they didn't have pizza delivery then. Olive oil delivery guy, yeah - that was the ticket ("Oooooo - it's so... slippery...").

[Spots]

My religion has boiled down simply: narratives. Everyone has their personal narrative. You could never use logic to just pull a character out of *that* place they are in the film. They're following a narrative. If you want to educate someone, say on atheism, you have to really be considerate and listen to their narrative. Guide them through it, not so much with logic. Logic has very little effect on emotion.

Mean, abrasive demonstrations towards people with narratives dissimilar to your own rarely ever accomplishes your goal. You can't convince someone through a narrative arc. But you can be there every step of the way and bring things into context.

A friend of mine from high school talks about a certain sense of helplessness he feels. I recognized the feeling. He watched a Carl Sagan film and was frightened by the size of the universe. And God's role in it. And I thought about the feelings I used to have before I reached my current narrative.

I think he's suffering from having these two narratives clashing into one another. Cognitive dissonance. He *wants* to believe but *knows* he cannot.

How do you simply convince somone of one or the other? The trick is tell yourself not to. Just be there for them if they have any questions. That's how I look at it anyways.

I may not have a belief but I have a strong narrative.

[Rev. Jordan T. Maxwell]

Jordan & Jesse: First, let's draw the distinction between "idiots" and people holding dubious sets of ideas. Secondly, there are plenty of each on both sides. Until recently I used to mod a high traffic atheist forum. Atheists spend as much time calling each other idiots as they do calling people of faith idiots (it's a favorite pastime among what tends to be a set of highly individualistic thinkers). What was usually respected most was the ability to take a position and defend it well with facts, reason and well-crafted rhetoric. This applied to xtians and atheists alike. Yes, there were xtians on our boards - but the minute they pulled out a line of "reasoning" like "Because the Bible sez..." they would be disemboweled online. The ones who survived were the ones who could defend themselves.

understand, i'm not calling anyone an idiot myself...more noting my distaste for anyone calling me an idiot or irrational, not even based on my beliefs (which they haven't taken the time to discuss with me), but dismissing me merely on the basis THAT i believe. and i get just as irked with atheists who consider me an idiot for believing in God and Jesus as i do with Christians who consider me a heretic and heathen for believing in evolution and gay marriage. on the flip side, i take a particular shine to anyone of any ideology who just wants to sit and talk and if a disagreement arises, we can handle it in a reasonable if impassioned manner. usually involving beer.

Jordan & Dan: Question for you. I have always wondered why self-proclaimed xtains don't go Jesus-at-the-Temple on the hate-mongers within their own ranks rather than wasting time demonizing those who simply lack belief. Don't you think the outspoken conservative fundies within the ranks presuming to speak for the mainstream do more damage to xtianity than a few college kids exchanging copies of "Juggs" for Bibles; and don't religious moderates give the extremists philosophical and political cover by not loudly and publicly repudiating them?

personally, i have done so in the past (and will still on occasion when our paths cross ). but although i'm not qualified to speak for Christians as a whole, i would think the reason the rank and file everyday folk of that faith don't go all viper's brood on the zealots and fundies is twofold. one, the same reason the hypocrites and hatemongers have hijacked the public face of Christianity as a vocal minority: the rest of us are a bit too busy trying to keep our own houses in order, living quiet good lives and keeping our stones to ourselves. two, despite the focus most of the zealots and fundies place on the inerrancy of the Bible and focusing so intently on slight references in Leviticus and Romans as pertains to the sexual proclivities of others and twisting whatever verse they can to enforce their own sexual puritanism and patriarchal gender roles onto everyone else, they seem to have overlooked the core tenet of Christ's philosophy and teachings: love, grace, tolerance, forgiveness, etc. the irony of course then being that the "bad" Christians are quick to hate, judge and condemn in as vocal and public a way as possible while Christians who strive to exemplify the virtues taught by our Lord and Saviour quietly seek the grace and patience to forgive our brothers their follies and rationally offer that that is not, in fact, what our faith is about. which of course makes for a far less sexy soundbite.

of course, grace is a constant challenge and all it takes is some redneck Baptist calling someone a faggot or televangelist comparing an abortion clinic to Auschwitz to put me in a table kicking mood...

[PyroDan]

So much to respond to:

Dan: I disagree. Publicity (even silly publicity) lets other "closeted" atheists know they're not alone. Raised in a religious household and as a student at a Jesuit high school, it wasn't until relatively late in life that I realized my inability to buy into a system of religious belief didn't mean something was "wrong" with me or something to be ashamed of. Even with the popular neo-atheism movement led by guys like Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Barker, Hitchens et al there's still a stigma one must overcome. This kind of event may not promote a specific idea, but I think it does serve a useful purpose.

I would have to say that isn't always true, The Westboro Baptist Church on national news does nothing for people of faith, it only lets bigots know they are not alone.

I doubt the event was serious to promote pornography, but it doesn't help me appreciate an intelligent or serious stance on atheism by that group. It would be better suited to a student comedy group.

I would never suggest that anything was wrong with anyone if they didn't 'buy into' a religious system. I don't adhere to any system, and it seems religion is often corrupted by the frailties of mankind. I couldn't even give you any direct quotes from the bible. My understanding is much more that faith is between you and your god, and while others can teach you, or help you, it relies entirely upon your belief.

And before my faith is confused for ignorance, I believe the earth is older than 5000yrs, evolution happens, the earth is not the center of the universe.

[Rev. Jordan T. Maxwell]

it should be noted, in the interest of full disclosure...as a Christian, i have way more porn than Bibles.

[mpbrockman]

So much to respond to:

Dan: I disagree. Publicity (even silly publicity) lets other "closeted" atheists know they're not alone. Raised in a religious household and as a student at a Jesuit high school, it wasn't until relatively late in life that I realized my inability to buy into a system of religious belief didn't mean something was "wrong" with me or something to be ashamed of. Even with the popular neo-atheism movement led by guys like Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Barker, Hitchens et al there's still a stigma one must overcome. This kind of event may not promote a specific idea, but I think it does serve a useful purpose.

I would have to say that isn't always true, The Westboro Baptist Church on national news does nothing for people of faith, it only lets bigots know they are not alone.

Congratulations on constructing a sentence in which the UTSA students are analogous to the Westboro "Thank god for IEDs" folk and atheists are analogous to bigots. Care to rephrase?

I doubt the event was serious to promote pornography, but it doesn't help me appreciate an intelligent or serious stance on atheism by that group. It would be better suited to a student comedy group.

Opinion noted.

I would never suggest that anything was wrong with anyone if they didn't 'buy into' a religious system. I don't adhere to any system, and it seems religion is often corrupted by the frailties of mankind. I couldn't even give you any direct quotes from the bible.

A shame, that last. As many have noted, the bible is one of the best arguments for disavowal of xtianity extant.

My understanding is much more that faith is between you and your god, and while others can teach you, or help you, it relies entirely upon your belief.

Replace the word "god" in that sentence with "Zeus" or "tree" (Druidic) and see if it still makes sense to you.

And before my faith is confused for ignorance, I believe the earth is older than 5000yrs, evolution happens, the earth is not the center of the universe.

No accusation of ignorance has been leveled. I'm questioning ideas, not intelligence or personal worth.

[mpbrockman]

it should be noted, in the interest of full disclosure...as a Christian, i have way more porn than Bibles.

That's my boy

[mpbrockman]

...two, despite the focus most of the zealots and fundies place on the inerrancy of the Bible and focusing so intently on slight references in Leviticus and Romans as pertains to the sexual proclivities of others and twisting whatever verse they can to enforce their own sexual puritanism and patriarchal gender roles onto everyone else, they seem to have overlooked the core tenet of Christ's philosophy and teachings: love, grace, tolerance, forgiveness, etc....

While the bible certainly records Christ promoting such tenets, please reconcile with Matt5:18.

[mpbrockman]

Logic has very little effect on emotion.

For children and the emotionally undisciplined, yes.

Enjoyed the bit about narratives, tho'. Conceptually very interesting.

[PyroDan]

So much to respond to:

Dan: I disagree. Publicity (even silly publicity) lets other "closeted" atheists know they're not alone. Raised in a religious household and as a student at a Jesuit high school, it wasn't until relatively late in life that I realized my inability to buy into a system of religious belief didn't mean something was "wrong" with me or something to be ashamed of. Even with the popular neo-atheism movement led by guys like Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Barker, Hitchens et al there's still a stigma one must overcome. This kind of event may not promote a specific idea, but I think it does serve a useful purpose.

I would have to say that isn't always true, The Westboro Baptist Church on national news does nothing for people of faith, it only lets bigots know they are not alone.

Congratulations on constructing a sentence in which the UTSA students are analogous to the Westboro "Thank god for IEDs" folk and atheists are analogous to bigots. Care to rephrase?

Not really, seeing as how my statement was on the merits of publicity and not UTSA students or a blanket statement about atheists being bigots. Maybe inferred? Not implied.

Opinion noted.
A shame, that last. As many have noted, the bible is one of the best arguments for disavowal of xtianity extant.
Replace the word "god" in that sentence with "Zeus" or "tree" (Druidic) and see if it still makes sense to you.

It still makes sense, as I have not specified any god, or higher being in my statement, and that is exactly what I meant. I am being non-judgmental, and I do love trees, crepe myrtles specifically.

[mpbrockman]

Man xmas carols are doing to be a b*tch. "O' Xmas Tree" works fine but...

Oh well, "In Excelsis Arbore".

[Spots]

Logic has very little effect on emotion.

For children and the emotionally undisciplined, yes.

Now even I'm turned off from your argument.

Why do the strictly logical tend to resort to character assassination? There's a double standard here. Seemingly the goal is to convince. But logic dictates that both parties, the speaker & the listener, be actively engaged for convincing to take place.

You can expound millions of passages of sound logic but someone who is emotionally turned off won't follow any of it. You cannot successfully convince with logic while defying the logical steps of convincing.

[kbadr]

Logic should be used to argue for/against a belief system in as much as a belief system should be used to argue a scientific theory. They are separate languages. Belief by definition is the lack of logic. That is not an insult, nor should be read as one. Belief is beautiful because it doesn't need logic to exist. Scientific facts are beautiful because it exists whether you believe it or not. I don't understand the desire to use one to prove or disprove the other. It's convoluted and unnecessary.

A belief system should be a deeply personal experience that enriches your life. Anyone who subscribes to a belief system as a way of making themselves feel superior to someone else is missing the point.

[Spots]

Enjoyed the bit about narratives, tho'. Conceptually very interesting.

It's a very simple concept. Most people feel that beliefs are tangible things. People with beliefs tend to fear people with no beliefs. Because the *lack of belief* represents the unknown & the uncertainty of the universe. The secular world may not have beliefs, but EVERYONE has a narrative. This is my way of finding a common language between secular and nonsecular peoples. It's my way of making something tangible that WAS tangible in the first place.