Austin Improv

Who in the show actually said that if the island was destroyed then disaster for the rest of the planet would ensue? As far as I recall it was just said by Jacob's mother, who apart from being batshit crazy, was consistently deceptive and unreliable as a source of information. A trait which she passed on to her "sons", especially MIB. Of course Jacob drank the wine and knew what she knew, but also seemed to absorb her worldview that protecting the island was important mainly because coming into contact with its powers makes a person crave to be close to it, rather like LOTR's one ring. Certainly when Jack left the island he fell apart, in what looked much like withdrawl. It seemed he needed to save the island because he couldn't bear to live without it. Really the thing that he needed to let of in purgatory, more so than his belief that he was alive there and had a son, was the island's hold on him. He needed to let go of his overriding desire to "go back" to the island.
In a lot of ways it probably would have been better to let the island sink, based on the information we have. The danger of the island was that it could fall into the wrong hands, preventing that is the main mission of the island's protector.

Dru Down wrote:Really the thing that he needed to let of in purgatory, more so than his belief that he was alive there and had a son, was the island's hold on him. He needed to let go of his overriding desire to "go back" to the island.

But in purgatory he didn't even know about the island until right before he left purgatory so it wasn't really an issue that he let go of his desire to return there.

RE: The consequences of letting the island sink: Obviously it was a choice based in faith that Jacob was right and that it would release all the evil into the world. We have no reason to believe it's "better off" underwater because the sideways universe wasn't a true universe and doesn't necessarily represent what it would be like if the island sunk.

Lants wrote:

Dru Down wrote:Really the thing that he needed to let of in purgatory, more so than his belief that he was alive there and had a son, was the island's hold on him. He needed to let go of his overriding desire to "go back" to the island.

But in purgatory he didn't even know about the island until right before he left purgatory so it wasn't really an issue that he let go of his desire to return there.

RE: The consequences of letting the island sink: Obviously it was a choice based in faith that Jacob was right and that it would release all the evil into the world. We have no reason to believe it's "better off" underwater because the sideways universe wasn't a true universe and doesn't necessarily represent what it would be like if the island sunk.

that was my take on it as well. i don't know how much room there is for the scientific method when the source of all life, death and rebirth is potentially at stake.

and if you think about it from the theory that it would essentially extinguish everyone's souls, Jack also saved everyone in the Sideways world as well. of course, he'd already done/has done/will do/is doing/shall always do it...grammar's fun with time travel and planes of existence independent of the space/time continuum.

Lants wrote:

Dru Down wrote:Really the thing that he needed to let of in purgatory, more so than his belief that he was alive there and had a son, was the island's hold on him. He needed to let go of his overriding desire to "go back" to the island.

But in purgatory he didn't even know about the island until right before he left purgatory so it wasn't really an issue that he let go of his desire to return there.

RE: The consequences of letting the island sink: Obviously it was a choice based in faith that Jacob was right and that it would release all the evil into the world. We have no reason to believe it's "better off" underwater because the sideways universe wasn't a true universe and doesn't necessarily represent what it would be like if the island sunk.

I thought that whenever Jacob spoke of preventing the evil from being released into the world, he was specifically talking about Smokey escaping, not what would happen just from the Source being uncorked.

Dru Down wrote:

Lants wrote:

Dru Down wrote:Really the thing that he needed to let of in purgatory, more so than his belief that he was alive there and had a son, was the island's hold on him. He needed to let go of his overriding desire to "go back" to the island.

But in purgatory he didn't even know about the island until right before he left purgatory so it wasn't really an issue that he let go of his desire to return there.

RE: The consequences of letting the island sink: Obviously it was a choice based in faith that Jacob was right and that it would release all the evil into the world. We have no reason to believe it's "better off" underwater because the sideways universe wasn't a true universe and doesn't necessarily represent what it would be like if the island sunk.

I thought that whenever Jacob spoke of preventing the evil from being released into the world, he was specifically talking about Smokey escaping, not what would happen just from the Source being uncorked.

i think they go hand in hand. in order for Smokey to be able to leave, the Source would have to be uncorked/light put out...or the relationship works both ways and if Smokey were able to leave (by killing off Jacob and all his Candidates), then the light would go out. the two are intrinsically linked.

That's sort of what was my understanding as well, that for Smokey to leave, the island must be uncorked, and this should be prevented because of the danger of Smokey leaving. But then the evil that is released is Smokey, not the light being put out. They called the light The Source, but I understood that as meaning the source of the island's power, not the source of humanity's souls/goodness. So as long as Smokey is killed by the candidate after the source is uncorked, then the release of evil is prevented. Thinking about that now though, if Smokiey becomes depowered and mortal when the island is uncorked, then what evil is he releasing? Doesn't he become just another mortal jerk? huh.

the_reverend wrote:

Dru Down wrote:

Lants wrote: But in purgatory he didn't even know about the island until right before he left purgatory so it wasn't really an issue that he let go of his desire to return there.

RE: The consequences of letting the island sink: Obviously it was a choice based in faith that Jacob was right and that it would release all the evil into the world. We have no reason to believe it's "better off" underwater because the sideways universe wasn't a true universe and doesn't necessarily represent what it would be like if the island sunk.

I thought that whenever Jacob spoke of preventing the evil from being released into the world, he was specifically talking about Smokey escaping, not what would happen just from the Source being uncorked.

i think they go hand in hand. in order for Smokey to be able to leave, the Source would have to be uncorked/light put out...or the relationship works both ways and if Smokey were able to leave (by killing off Jacob and all his Candidates), then the light would go out. the two are intrinsically linked.

Dru Down wrote:That's sort of what was my understanding as well, that for Smokey to leave, the island must be uncorked, and this should be prevented because of the danger of Smokey leaving. But then the evil that is released is Smokey, not the light being put out. They called the light The Source, but I understood that as meaning the source of the island's power, not the source of humanity's souls/goodness. So as long as Smokey is killed by the candidate after the source is uncorked, then the release of evil is prevented. Thinking about that now though, if Smokiey becomes depowered and mortal when the island is uncorked, then what evil is he releasing? Doesn't he become just another mortal jerk? huh.

the_reverend wrote:

Dru Down wrote: I thought that whenever Jacob spoke of preventing the evil from being released into the world, he was specifically talking about Smokey escaping, not what would happen just from the Source being uncorked.

i think they go hand in hand. in order for Smokey to be able to leave, the Source would have to be uncorked/light put out...or the relationship works both ways and if Smokey were able to leave (by killing off Jacob and all his Candidates), then the light would go out. the two are intrinsically linked.

i think, since there was a need to guard the Source before there was a Smokey, that the more pervasive threat was in fact the extinguishing of the Source (which was not only described as the font of the Island's power, but also the essence of life, death and rebirth and that light exists in all men, etc.). so while Smokey was the immediate threat to the Island and the Source, the extinguishing of the light/releasing of the evil was the greater threat to the world(s) at large.

which is to say you can defeat the demon, but you still have to close the Hellmouth. (there's another Source in Cleveland...)

the_reverend wrote:

Dru Down wrote:That's the light being Smokey uncorked, then the island is his overriding desire of letting the island sink.

i think all his Candidates can defeat the demon, but you still have to close Cleveland.

So... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... the... ... ... ... ... uh... okay... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... it... was... dangerous... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... for... ... ... ... Smokey... to leave... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... because... the only... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... way... ... ... ... ... ... that... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... he could... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... leave... ... ... ... ...is... if... he... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... basically... ... ... killed... the life force... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... of... everybody... ... ... in the world... which is... what happens... ... ... ... when the Island... ... ... ... is uncorked... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... which also... makes Smokey... mortal... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... even though... ... ... ... ... uh... even... though... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... okay... wait... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Smokey ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... wanted to... leave... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... the Island... which he... ... ... ... could ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... only... do... he could only... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... do... as a mortal human... but... ... okay... but... ... ... the problem is... ... ... that... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... if he leaves... the Island... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... then he's... ... not... really... ... ... really human... because... ... humans... need... the source... ... of Life... ... ... they need... yeah... Smokey can't really be human ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... because ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... if he... ... leaves the Island... ... then he enters... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... a world... where... there is no source of life... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... no source of life to protect... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... which means... oh! ... oh!... ... which means humanity... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... will just... die out... ... or no! ... ... worse, all life will die out! ... so... the whole world... would... just die out... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... as a result... of... just this one guy... Smokey... ... ... who selfishly is willing to end the world... ... just... so... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... he can... live ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... off... the Island? ... even though his... ... ... ... mortal life ... ... ... ... would... ... ... ... ... consist ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... of... just ... ... watching the world die? ... ... ... ... ... is that it?

Jeff wrote:

the_reverend wrote:

Dru Down wrote:That's the light being Smokey uncorked, then the island is his overriding desire of letting the island sink.

i think all his Candidates can defeat the demon, but you still have to close Cleveland.

So... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... the... ... ... ... ... uh... okay... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... it... was... dangerous... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... for... ... ... ... Smokey... to leave... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... because... the only... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... way... ... ... ... ... ... that... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... he could... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... leave... ... ... ... ...is... if... he... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... basically... ... ... killed... the life force... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... of... everybody... ... ... in the world... which is... what happens... ... ... ... when the Island... ... ... ... is uncorked... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... which also... makes Smokey... mortal... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... even though... ... ... ... ... uh... even... though... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... okay... wait... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Smokey ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... wanted to... leave... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... the Island... which he... ... ... ... could ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... only... do... he could only... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... do... as a mortal human... but... ... okay... but... ... ... the problem is... ... ... that... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... if he leaves... the Island... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... then he's... ... not... really... ... ... really human... because... ... humans... need... the source... ... of Life... ... ... they need... yeah... Smokey can't really be human ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... because ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... if he... ... leaves the Island... ... then he enters... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... a world... where... there is no source of life... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... no source of life to protect... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... which means... oh! ... oh!... ... which means humanity... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... will just... die out... ... or no! ... ... worse, all life will die out! ... so... the whole world... would... just die out... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... as a result... of... just this one guy... Smokey... ... ... who selfishly is willing to end the world... ... just... so... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... he can... live ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... off... the Island? ... even though his... ... ... ... mortal life ... ... ... ... would... ... ... ... ... consist ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... of... just ... ... watching the world die? ... ... ... ... ... is that it?

yeah, i think you've pretty much got it.

Yeah, that's the way I saw it too.
Smokey isn't the source of evil that needs to be prevented/protected/whatever. He's just guardian or representative of it. He's willing to destroy the world he exists in just so he can exist in it again.

Drew, think about this: If Smokey were the real threat, there would have been no need to re-cork the island after he was killed.

Regarding one of the unanswered questions about the food drops: Recall how the missile got to the island very delayed. I posit that the food drops that landed on the island in the present were actually dropped out of planes in the past.

Lants wrote:Yeah, that's the way I saw it too.
Smokey isn't the source of evil that needs to be prevented/protected/whatever. He's just guardian or representative of it. He's willing to destroy the world he exists in just so he can exist in it again.

Drew, think about this: If Smokey were the real threat, there would have been no need to re-cork the island after he was killed.

Yeah, I got that, that's what I was saying, that maybe Jack didn't need to recork the island after Smokey was dead. Which is a theory supported by the self-assuredness with which Kate told Jack (after they killed Smokey) that he didn't need to go back, he could come with her, get on the plane, and live. It sounded from her delivery that the show was declaring that that was a valid choice Jack could make without the world blowing up or everyone's soul being extinguished, but that Jack went back to save the island (as well as Desmond etc), not humanity/earth. Which is still heroic, but lower, more ambiguous, stakes.

BTW, still a good finale to a great final season, better than BSG. I'd agree that it is one of the best network (non-cable) series of all time, mainly because ABC made the unusual decision to end it while still in its prime. There are shows like the X-Files which have as many great individual episodes but went on for years after they jumped the shark.

zyrain wrote:Regarding one of the unanswered questions about the food drops: Recall how the missile got to the island very delayed. I posit that the food drops that landed on the island in the present were actually dropped out of planes in the past.

Whoa! Nice!

Dru Down wrote:Yeah, I got that, that's what I was saying, that maybe Jack didn't need to recork the island after Smokey was dead. Which is a theory supported by the self-assuredness with which Kate told Jack (after they killed Smokey) that he didn't need to go back, he could come with her, get on the plane, and live. It sounded from her delivery that the show was declaring that that was a valid choice Jack could make without the world blowing up or everyone's soul being extinguished, but that Jack went back to save the island (as well as Desmond etc), not humanity/earth. Which is still heroic, but lower, more ambiguous, stakes.

BTW, still a good finale to a great final season, better than BSG. I'd agree that it is one of the best network (non-cable) series of all time, mainly because ABC made the unusual decision to end it while still in its prime. There are shows like the X-Files which have as many great individual episodes but went on for years after they jumped the shark.

i would put that more on Kate's typical instinct to run and not wanting to lose another man she loved, especially when they've put up so many obstacles for themselves before. to her mind, the threat is ended with Smokey and the Island's just crumbling and that's all there is to it. Jack, i think, knows better and opts to sacrifice his happiness and life to save everyone else...so Kate wants to run and Jack needs to fix. the more things change, and all that jazz. lol!

zyrain wrote:Regarding one of the unanswered questions about the food drops: Recall how the missile got to the island very delayed. I posit that the food drops that landed on the island in the present were actually dropped out of planes in the past.

though the missile was only delayed by minutes...the food drop would have had to have been delayed by over a decade (which wouldn't seem the most efficient means of resupplying for the Dharma Initiative...no need for a Purge, the bastards would just starve. lol!). i suppose if one drop missed its bearing it's possible, but the time dilation is so severe...i stand by my theory that after the Purge, the Others maintained Dharma protocols so as far as anyone off the Island is aware, the Initiative is still operating so supplies are still regularly dropped (intended to be picked up by the Others and taken back to restock the Barracks, but that one palate was intercepted by the Losties).

Extensive audio podcast Q&As by Creative Screenwriting Magazine senior editor Jeff Goldsmith...

... with Lindelof and Cuse - how they structured the stories and what they focused on. The short answer was character 80%, island mythology 20%. And very little was thought out in detail ahead of time, although they didn't put anything in haphazardly. There was always a discussion of what an element might become later on in the story.
http://creativescreenwritingmagazine.bl ... -cuse.html

... with writer-producers Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz about TV's Lost.
http://creativescreenwritingmagazine.bl ... owitz.html

Enjoy.