No Women Featured in NY Comedy Festival! No Joke!

[Maggie Maye]

Okay, somebody have sex with PyroDan before this gets out of hand.

Don't worry, Andy, I'm sure it's going to remain in his hand.

Ba-Zing.

To answer this, I'm strictly an advocate of merit. Stand up festivals are shows that people pay for. I'd venture to say the audience doesn't care about diversity as much as they care about seeing a good show. I'd venture further to say that most of the audience won't even consciously realize the lack of women without someone pointing it out. Festival organizers shouldn't deny anyone based on gender or any other factor, but at the same time, they shouldn't have to actively try to diversify shows. If a woman isn't legitimately funnier than a man (or will bring a better draw/be more crowd pleasing) then maybe she doesn't have a place at that particular festival. And I'm pretty sure that's what happened in this case (that, and maybe there were scheduling conflicts with female comics). If someone asks me to apply to their festival because I'm a woman and they're seeking more diversity, to me, that's just cheapened my work. They should want me because I'm funny, not because there's a lack of boobs on the lineup.

[PyroDan]

Okay, somebody have sex with PyroDan before this gets out of hand.

Don't worry, Andy, I'm sure it's going to remain in his hand.

Ba-Zing.

To answer this,.... They should want me because I'm funny, not because there's a lack of boobs on the lineup.

I would normally have it in my hands after a boob comment, but now I won't out of principle. I feel dirty, I'm going to go cry in the shower.

[Rev. Jordan T. Maxwell]

To answer this, I'm strictly an advocate of merit. Stand up festivals are shows that people pay for. I'd venture to say the audience doesn't care about diversity as much as they care about seeing a good show. I'd venture further to say that most of the audience won't even consciously realize the lack of women without someone pointing it out. Festival organizers shouldn't deny anyone based on gender or any other factor, but at the same time, they shouldn't have to actively try to diversify shows. If a woman isn't legitimately funnier than a man (or will bring a better draw/be more crowd pleasing) then maybe she doesn't have a place at that particular festival. And I'm pretty sure that's what happened in this case (that, and maybe there were scheduling conflicts with female comics). If someone asks me to apply to their festival because I'm a woman and they're seeking more diversity, to me, that's just cheapened my work. They should want me because I'm funny, not because there's a lack of boobs on the lineup.

i'm not saying festivals should ignore merit or have some kind of quota or affirmative action system..."we need three female stand ups, two black improv troupes, one Latino sketch group and a transgendered mime!"...but i do think it's important to be actively mindful and aware of representing a number of diverse voices and perspectives. not JUST in demographic terms of gender, race, sexuality, etc. but those are certainly good things to consider. if by some anomaly, in all of the submissions, the only good comedians are male or white...well, then, i suppose you have to do what you have to do to put together the strongest festival possible. but with as subjective as comedy and performance can be, i think variety and diversity are just as important and appealing to an audience (and, in some cases, challenging which is ALSO something good to strive for) as what the producers consider "merit." because i've been to a few festivals now where some of the headliners were just awful while performers relegated to "lesser" slots were doing incredible work. so what the producers and the audience consider "good" or "funny" might have a bit of a gap in between. so while merit should be the fundamental basis to build around, there are other factors to consider as well when putting together as strong a line up and overall event as possible.

[Maggie Maye]

i'm not saying festivals should ignore merit or have some kind of quota or affirmative action system..."we need three female stand ups, two black improv troupes, one Latino sketch group and a transgendered mime!"...but i do think it's important to be actively mindful and aware of representing a number of diverse voices and perspectives. not JUST in demographic terms of gender, race, sexuality, etc. but those are certainly good things to consider. if by some anomaly, in all of the submissions, the only good comedians are male or white...well, then, i suppose you have to do what you have to do to put together the strongest festival possible. but with as subjective as comedy and performance can be, i think variety and diversity are just as important and appealing to an audience (and, in some cases, challenging which is ALSO something good to strive for) as what the producers consider "merit." because i've been to a few festivals now where some of the headliners were just awful while performers relegated to "lesser" slots were doing incredible work. so what the producers and the audience consider "good" or "funny" might have a bit of a gap in between. so while merit should be the fundamental basis to build around, there are other factors to consider as well when putting together as strong a line up and overall event as possible.

I know you weren't advocating a comedy affirmative action. We pretty much were in agreement, except on the point that festivals should be actively mindful and aware of putting together different groups of people. That, perhaps unconsciously, carries an assumption that different points of view are divided demographically. In truth, ALL people have different points of view. Just by virtue of having different people, you will have different styles of comedy and different outlooks on life. Even if they end up with 10 white male comics all talking about the same stuff (which I doubt will happen), if the comics please the crowd and bring a draw, that's in the best interest of the festival. As I indicated before, I consider crowd pleasing ability and the ability to get people in seats is part of your merit. In terms of headliners not doing as well as some up and comers- that is the travisty of the entertainment industry. For example, Dane Cook sucks. However, he sells out Madison Square Garden. Those people are included because they bring a draw.

[Rev. Jordan T. Maxwell]

I know you weren't advocating a comedy affirmative action. We pretty much were in agreement, except on the point that festivals should be actively mindful and aware of putting together different groups of people. That, perhaps unconsciously, carries an assumption that different points of view are divided demographically. In truth, ALL people have different points of view. Just by virtue of having different people, you will have different styles of comedy and different outlooks on life. Even if they end up with 10 white male comics all talking about the same stuff (which I doubt will happen), if the comics please the crowd and bring a draw, that's in the best interest of the festival. As I indicated before, I consider crowd pleasing ability and the ability to get people in seats is part of your merit. In terms of headliners not doing as well as some up and comers- that is the travisty of the entertainment industry. For example, Dane Cook sucks. However, he sells out Madison Square Garden. Those people are included because they bring a draw.

i agree that diversity of voice and perspective isn't JUST broken down along demographic lines, but being mindful of those aspects alongside everything else makes for a more varied and multifaceted line up. now, this specific case might just be a fluke and all the people good enough to headline just happen to be men. but women in comedy are often woefully overlooked and underrepresented BECAUSE they're women (or if they are paid attention to, it's because they have a very masculine voice and style). so it's something that festival producers and coordinators should be aware of and consider, in the same way that if they're booking predominately white acts they should take a look and consider, is it because they're legitimately the best or do we need to evaluate our own biases? not against other races (or genders), per se, but that their own perspective on comedy makes them appreciate and consider CERTAIN voices and styles over others.

and i know it's part of the producers' job to get asses in seats, but there should be some eye towards maintaining a level of quality and artistic integrity. that's one of the reasons why i think Out of Bounds has found the longevity and success that Big Stinkin' lacked. admittedly, the audiences for stand up and improv differ somewhat so perhaps the criteria for their festivals differ as well, but that's just my own cultural bias and perspective bleeding through.

[PyroDan]

There have been some valid points on both ends, I guess it really comes down to one thing for any festival, the Goal.

Is the festival's goal to bring comedy and variety to you audience's, city, and performers? Or is it a cash cow?

I know for the most part any host does it for a little of both. The selfish desire to see groups from elsewhere, mine material, formats, influence patriation to your area, and build audience base.

Then there is abundant opportunity to make money.

That is why the Oxygen Network plays The Notebook over and over, and Spike has Mansers.

If it's a cash cow, the only thought is efficiency, low cost, and butts in the seats. Otherwise it's a labor of love, and love is blind.

I know this differs from my other posts, but fear not, my pathetic life will return.

[kaci_beeler]

I personally notice when women aren't well-represented in a festival, and it bothers me and effects my decisions.

[PyroDan]

When I was at Second City we had a discussion about women and minorities being under-represented, and SC was trying to actively build up numbers of both. My conservatory group was 5 men 5 women so we were really balanced.

I think it is easier for an established entity to fill in the vaccum then it would be for a small struggling theatre.

As you said some scenes just don't have the population. I think it relates to play styles and societal pressures, boys can be silly, girls must be pretty. That's putting it simply.

[nadine]

I think it *is* important to focus on diversity in improv festivals.

I used to think women just weren't as good as men in improv. But I went to chicago improv festival a few years ago and was blown away by the quality of the women-only troupes, and thinking they were so much funnier then most of the acts I've seen. It totally raised my expectations of women in improv.

If you rarely see women in a field, you'll start to assume certain things that aren't true (like women aren't that good in that field).

And also, a lot of improv comes from your life experiences... a woman will create different stories then a man does. An asian woman will have grown up differently and have different jokes. It bothers me when I don't see more diversity represented in festivals, and I do make a note of that. Because there should be enough woman that are good enough to equal the average caliber of an improv festival.

[LuBu McJohnson]

and i know it's part of the producers' job to get asses in seats, but there should be some eye towards maintaining a level of quality and artistic integrity. that's one of the reasons why i think Out of Bounds has found the longevity and success that Big Stinkin' lacked.

I know, right?

Let us now look into our own souls before we judge the souls of others.

[Maggie Maye]

now, this specific case might just be a fluke and all the people good enough to headline just happen to be men. but women in comedy are often woefully overlooked and underrepresented BECAUSE they're women (or if they are paid attention to, it's because they have a very masculine voice and style).

You can't assume that this is the only reason females weren't included. In my initial post, I stated that perhaps there were scheduling conflicts with other female comics. Maybe the festival didn't offer enough money for a comic of their caliber. Merit or discrimination may not have even been factors. Lack of representation may have been beyond the control of the festival organizers.

Additionally, I think women are overlooked in comedy because there are so few of them. Stand up comedy is still a boy's club. The volume of men greatly outweighs the women. Now, in this festival there were 10 slots. That's a small number of acts. The likelihood that it was going to be all men, or man heavy, is great considering the volume of men in standup compared to the amount of women. If there were 100 slots with no women represented, there would be a greater case for saying that women are being overlooked or discriminated against.

and i know it's part of the producers' job to get asses in seats, but there should be some eye towards maintaining a level of quality and artistic integrity. that's one of the reasons why i think Out of Bounds has found the longevity and success that Big Stinkin' lacked. admittedly, the audiences for stand up and improv differ

Again, crowd pleasing ability is part of merit. Yeah, there are going to be comedians you don't like, but just because they don't tickle your fancy doesn't mean you can file it under bad artistic integrity. Everyone's definition of "funny" differs, so you have to go by if they please the crowd and whether people would show up to see them. It sucks to have to put it that way, but what good is a festival if no one wants to come? I stated Dane Cook sucks. I don't find him funny and neither do a lot of people. A LOT of people. However, there are masses that find him hilarious. He sells out arenas. So by all means, book him and have me angry, yet generate money for the festival and please many others.

I want to take this opportunity to clarify that my argument relates to stand up festivals (which is the type of festival we're discussing). I'm sure improv festivals are different and as The Reverend states, the audience (and arguably their expectations for the festivals) differ.

[Rev. Jordan T. Maxwell]

and i know it's part of the producers' job to get asses in seats, but there should be some eye towards maintaining a level of quality and artistic integrity. that's one of the reasons why i think Out of Bounds has found the longevity and success that Big Stinkin' lacked.

I know, right?

Let us now look into our own souls before we judge the souls of others.

i think the entire discussion of that thread helps prove my point.

(also important to note, that was the one year i wasn't at Out of Bounds...the whole damn thing just falls apart if i'm not around. )

You can't assume that this is the only reason females weren't included. In my initial post, I stated that perhaps there were scheduling conflicts with other female comics. Maybe the festival didn't offer enough money for a comic of their caliber. Merit or discrimination may not have even been factors. Lack of representation may have been beyond the control of the festival organizers.

didn't mean to imply that i was assuming anything...like i said, it might've been a fluke rather than discrimination ("fluke" meaning to include both the kinds of external circumstances you mention and the possibility of passive overlooking rather than active discrimination on the organizers' part).

Additionally, I think women are overlooked in comedy because there are so few of them. Stand up comedy is still a boy's club. The volume of men greatly outweighs the women. Now, in this festival there were 10 slots. That's a small number of acts. The likelihood that it was going to be all men, or man heavy, is great considering the volume of men in standup compared to the amount of women. If there were 100 slots with no women represented, there would be a greater case for saying that women are being overlooked or discriminated against.

not familiar with the New York scene, but at every stand up show i've been to here in L.A., the ratio of men to women is incredibly balanced. and considering it's still perceived as a boy's club and they only had 10 slots, i think that behooves them all the more to say "hey, why not consider a woman and help break some of these prejudices, maybe draw in some audiences we wouldn't otherwise?" what harm does it do them to consider that? if there are no women up to the festival's calibre based on merit...well, okay, cool. but at least they considered it. and that may well have been the case here. it's still good for there to be discussion, regardless of the cause.

Again, crowd pleasing ability is part of merit. Yeah, there are going to be comedians you don't like, but just because they don't tickle your fancy doesn't mean you can file it under bad artistic integrity. Everyone's definition of "funny" differs, so you have to go by if they please the crowd and whether people would show up to see them. It sucks to have to put it that way, but what good is a festival if no one wants to come? I stated Dane Cook sucks. I don't find him funny and neither do a lot of people. A LOT of people. However, there are masses that find him hilarious. He sells out arenas. So by all means, book him and have me angry, yet generate money for the festival and please many others.

and i'm saying, among other things, that as long as you're putting the big draw on the bill, consider some other voices and styles as well...not only to provide a diverse line up for its own sake, but because comedy is subjective you're more bound to have a quality line up if you vary it up and drawn in a wider and more diverse audience as well. to go with your hypothetical, i'd never pay to see Dane Cook...but you throw Maria Bamford on that bill as well, and i'll cough up the dough and sit through half an hour of frat boy Sufi Myspace bullshit if it means i get the good stuff as well. and that's an ass in the seat they might not have had before. and also good word of mouth to future potential audiences and performers, moreso than a festival that caters solely to profits and the lowest common denominator.

perception is, inevitably, reality. if you are perceived to be a sexist or racist or homophobic...or, to use less provocative terms, a homogenous festival, then acts and performers of particular demographics or voices or styles, more fringe and less mainstream perspectives, won't even bother to submit. and so, whether you intended it or not, your festival has become that perception. so, again, at the very least it's something that's good to be mindful of.

[kerri]

the stand up scene is not balanced in LA. I have never done or been to a show in LA where there are equal female and males, or even near that. There are a couple shows that are more balanced then others (tiger lily maybe) but that isnt the standard. There might be a higher percentage of women to men compared to here, but I am not even sure if that is true without more research.

[LuBu McJohnson]

and i know it's part of the producers' job to get asses in seats, but there should be some eye towards maintaining a level of quality and artistic integrity. that's one of the reasons why i think Out of Bounds has found the longevity and success that Big Stinkin' lacked.

I know, right?

Let us now look into our own souls before we judge the souls of others.

i think the entire discussion of that thread helps prove my point.

I just want to point out that we(and probably you too, even though you weren't there) were willing to give the producers of OOB the benefit of the doubt. There's no reason to think that the producers of any comedy festival would do something like this simply because they felt like it.

[Maggie Maye]

not familiar with the New York scene, but at every stand up show i've been to here in L.A., the ratio of men to women is incredibly balanced. and considering it's still perceived as a boy's club and they only had 10 slots, i think that behooves them all the more to say "hey, why not consider a woman and help break some of these prejudices, maybe draw in some audiences we wouldn't otherwise?" what harm does it do them to consider that? if there are no women up to the festival's calibre based on merit...well, okay, cool. but at least they considered it. and that may well have been the case here. it's still good for there to be discussion, regardless of the cause.

I'm with Kerri- the standup scene in LA is not balanced. There are more women than in other scenes, but also WAY more men. All the standup shows I've ever been to while being in LA had women underrepresented.

... to go with your hypothetical, i'd never pay to see Dane Cook...but you throw Maria Bamford on that bill as well, and i'll cough up the dough and sit through half an hour of frat boy Sufi Myspace bullshit if it means i get the good stuff as well. and that's an ass in the seat they might not have had before. and also good word of mouth to future potential audiences and performers, moreso than a festival that caters solely to profits and the lowest common denominator..

That's a fallacy of an argument. You'd pay to see Maria Bamford because she's funny, not because she's a woman. If a festival had Dane Cook and Dave Chappelle, you'd probably pay to see that (I know I'd sit through the frat boy Sufi Myspace bullshit to see Chappelle). And remember, this is a festival. Also, you can't assume that yours is the only ass they care about pleasing. As much as I can be a comedy snob and turn my nose up at Dane Cook, the fact of the matter is he makes people laugh (for some reason). They are looking to entertain the masses, not just one particular ass in a seat. Yeah, it sucks, but while they might lose 3 asses, they may gain 400. They are making the best possible festival for those 400 people.

perception is, inevitably, reality. if you are perceived to be a sexist or racist or homophobic...or, to use less provocative terms, a homogenous festival, then acts and performers of particular demographics or voices or styles, more fringe and less mainstream perspectives, won't even bother to submit. and so, whether you intended it or not, your festival has become that perception. so, again, at the very least it's something that's good to be mindful of.

You are perceiving them as sexist for ONE year's results. Last year Sarah Silverman performed. The year before that Sarah attended as well as Janeane Garofalo. Additionally, you're making this determination based on the headliners. There are other shows where women are featured. If people want to make determinations on a festival for one year's headliners, then whatever. They don't have to come. You can't please everyone. There are going to be people getting angry for all kinds of reasons. I've had people tell me that they were disappointed that the Austin comedy scene wasn't diverse (i.e. didn't have many African Americans). But there's nothing you can do about it. And, like I've been saying, we're not sure why they didn't include female headliners THIS year. Maybe they tried and were not able to get any women who were available, affordable and headliner caliber.