I'm such a woman that I...

[spantell]

Whoa, the topic is rich, and there's a lot that can be said.

I think this thread started as somewhat of an evolved criticism in that we are having fun laughing at how ridiculous the stereotypes are. Being able to laugh at them should be proof that we've realized that they're nonsense. ..... While it may be relevant because we're talking about gender roles, sorry, but I don't really understand the need to complain to a bunch of people who are already open minded enough to consider you an equal.

I agree with the first part of this quote and I think things can sometimes be said better with humor. But people can be relatively enlightened and there can still be a lot they don't understand. I'm not sure that everyone reading this understood what all the women, or at least I, was saying (and that's o.k.).

I really enjoyed reading the men's thread. I would also love to read a serious thread by the men along the lines of what Brockman was talking about.

There's plenty of room for both. Just do it.

[kaci_beeler]

But that message is certainly ironic, considering that...
There are many successful women artists (or, women who "work with the pressure of success")...
There are many women "in shows with men."
There are many women artists with fewer or more than 4 free-lance jobs.
There are many women who are confident their careers will pick up before they're 80 (and few, I think, who have some kind of pre-cognition about that, like "knowing [their] career might pick up after [they're] eighty.")
There are many women artists whose work is not labeled feminine-- at least, or especially, not every time.
...
There are many women artists who don't choke on big cigars.

I'm not saying those aren't valid issues, I'm just saying they're obviously worded so ironically that they're not accurate. I suppose my main complaint with the message itself is that, despite that it's ironic, it seems to sacrifice humor for some kind of bitterness. Or maybe my sexism reads bitterness that isn't there, and if that's true, then I feel somewhat ashamed of myself, and that's no fun, either. So, bleh.

Then again, if this piece is strictly about painters, then I really don't know what I'm talking about, because I'm pretty ignorant of that segment of the art world.

This was first put out in NYC in 1988. It's pertaining mainly to women a part of the contemporary art world. Some things have changed since then, but overall there is a lot of ugly truth in those statements. By this time, there was still a very small number of women represented in galleries, museums, and positions of power in the art world. Though feminist activism opened the door in the 70s, too few women had been actually allowed in since then.
So some of it is ironically worded, women work without the pressure of success because it is unlikely they could be very successful because of how art institutions were used to operating.

The Guerrilla Girls began in 1985, after a few soon-to-be members attended an exhibition titled “An International Survey of Painting and Sculpture” held by the Museum of Modern Art in New York and discovered that only 13 of the 169 featured artists were women. The ratio of artists of color were even smaller, none of whom were women artists either.

[KathyRose]

The facts are indisputable. The numbers are what they are. But how one responds to them is a choice. Personally, I don't find anger and bitterness, even posing as humor, to be either enjoyable or productive, but I can see that it's a popular reaction.

Why should my point of view have any merit? In 1968, I was one of only three female students enrolled in the entire College of Engineering at UT Austin. I was the only girl in the Engineering Honors program. I was viewed as an oddity in most of my classes, but still graduated with a 4.0 in Aerospace Engineering & Engineering Mechanics and 3.9 overall. One of my "B"s was bestowed - in an English Composition Honors class - by the only female professor I had in college. She didn't think that I belonged there with her boys (and told me so).

In 1972, I was the first and only female engineer working in the IBM product development lab in Austin. This was back when all the guys wore white shirts & narrow ties, the guys played bridge and told war stories during their lunch hour, and promotion parties where held in the Poodle Dog Lounge (a topless joint on Burnet Rd). At first, I passed on the promotion parties, then decided - what the hell. Interesting times, indeed.

I still remember some of the ribald jokes that were told, followed by profound apologies when the teller realized that I was in the room. The talk didn't phase me, except for the occasional blush; but clearly, my presence affected them. One of the model makers suggested that I wear a cow bell so they would know when I was coming. But after a few years, they had adapted to me as much as I had adapted to them, without rancor on either side.

I didn't feel the need to make a fuss. I didn't kiss ass or play submissive. I held my ground, let my work speak for itself and tried not to miss out on the fun. (The guys once ran tubing into the guts of a prototype PC that I was testing and puffed cigarette smoke into it when I turned on the power ... Ha. Ha. You know what jokesters engineers in a lab can be!)

I only encountered one guy (a failure analysis lab technician my father's age) who told me to my face that this was no place for a woman and that I should be home having babies. I didn't run to the personnel office to file a complaint. I smiled and returned every jibe he had to offer, then got back down to the work. No drama required.

I did have one manager who tried his best to discredit my work and get me fired, but he did not succeed. He was also a jerk to his male employees, so I had plenty of allies.

There was another woman engineer who came onboard a few years after I did. She was the militant feminist type. Even I couldn't stand her. She was living proof that one cannot demand respect; one must earn it. She didn't last long, thank goodness. It was painful to watch.

The net is this: Yeah, I know about being in the minority. Shit happens. But you determine the experience you have by how you respond to it. You can wallow in anger and bitterness, or you can rise above it and quietly prevail ... like the gracious avenging angel that only a woman can be.

Kathy

[Aden]

Plus... give it a few years.

The rate at which girl babies are being born, in comparison to the rate boy babies are being born... well we won't be in the minority for long.

[Chuck Dodgson]

God damn, no one is trying to keep you chicks down; so put your clams away and stop bitching.

Also, Kaci, you seem really cool. We should hang out sometime. Maybe go out for coffee. Check out an art gallery.

[TexasImprovMassacre]

I don't argue that sexism doesn't still exist. It will likely always exist to at least some extent from both sides by people who's minds will never be changed. However, the percentage of cases of sexism keeping women from succeeding is on the decline.

I'm all for people speaking their minds...I don't really know what its going to change here though. I personally don't find any of this information eye opening, and I agree with jeff that some of it is quite frustratingly worded. Mostly, that's what about it irritated me. Several of the statements point more towards someone not making a personal choice to think for themselves. For example, "choosing between a career and motherhood". If a couple has a baby, won't someone have to sacrifice to take care of it? Of course it doesn't have to be the woman. "Choosing to want to cover your flaws"? well, choose to accept yourself. "Settling because its the easiest thing to do" well, shit, learn to think for yourself or you kind of deserve to be unhappy. "following tradition so you don't make anyone uncomfortable", gah...jesus, think for yourself.

I understand the arguments and your problem with gender roles, and I sympathize with your frustration. But, i'm with jeff again, it reads as bitterness, and whether or not you intended it to sound like complaining it reads like that to me because...well, to be fair, that's what you're doing. You're complaining about women's role in the arts. Call it whatever else you want, its still complaining.

I know the premise was "post ironic or funny stereotype here", but I don't always feel like doing that. I get tired of jokes. Some times I have real things I feel like saying, things that I don't want to hide behind a stereotype or ironic joke.

I know you were well intentioned. No one was saying you shouldn't speak your mind, or that you shouldn't be allowed to say your serious thoughts. Say whatever you want...no one was saying anything that suggested that women shouldn't be allowed to succeed either...I suppose what I was saying in my initial response was that when given the choice between having fun, or preaching to the choir...I still don't really understand why you felt compelled to poop all over the party to make a point that the majority of us are aware of and agree with. If you don't always feel like joking that's fine, but you weren't forced to post. Deciding to post what you did was a bit irritating to me because, well...gahhh, i think we know this info, and I don't see it as likely to accomplish anything beyond spoiling the fun.

Dr.P is right, there is room for both. You're more than welcome to post whatever you want. Its the major havoc section. Hijack whatever thread you feel compelled to, I guess. Doesn't change the fact though that you're harshin my buzz by hijacking this thread to use it as a soapbox, and I couldn't help but wonder why.

[kaci_beeler]

I'm sorry Cody, I didn't mean to kill your buzz.
Next time I'll keep my thoughts to myself, which is usually what I try to do here on the forums.

I'm such a woman that I would rather stop arguing than continue.

[TexasImprovMassacre]

ahhhhh, shit. I'm sorry for unintentionally oppressing you.

[Chuck Dodgson]

... was punished by God for eating the apple with painful child birth.

[Jeff]

... was punished by God for eating the apple with painful child birth.

She should've eaten the apple with a new car.

[Chuck Dodgson]

... was punished by God for eating the apple with painful child birth.

She should've eaten the apple with a new car.

Jeff, your response is stupid. I know the syntax was off, but we all clearly know that "the apple" was not modifying "painful child birth." You're a real dick, you know that?

[Jeff]

Jeff, You're a real dick, you know that?

Yep!

[Chuck Dodgson]

I'm so sick of people saying breakfast tacos are better than breakfast burritos. Tacos have smaller tortillas, but have the same contents. You can put whatever you want in either. It's bullshit, and it just isn't fair that when people think of mexican breakfast they go straight to the burrito, when the taco is just as valid. Look at thousands of years of breakfast history: people eat tons of tacos for other meals--- yet at breakfast, the burrito is the majority represented. Let's consider THIS people. This issue is way more relevant than sexism and the "glass ceiling."

[Chuck Dodgson]

Jeff, You're a real dick, you know that?

Yep!

Where do you live, Jeff?

[Jeff]