obama

[BriHo]

Which is a good thing, in my opinion, since it would save me a grand total of about $24.50 , would cost 50,000 jobs (conservatively), and would absolutely ruin the federal governments ability for internal improvements (roads, bridges, levees...)

Although, if another levee fails, Austin might get another Coldtowne, and that might rock.

[mpbrockman]

Theocracy watch aside, as a decided secularist myself, I'm a bit surprised that you simply would use an appeal to force as a replacement for a refutation.

??

Just out of curiosity, when I wrote "Incorrect, see above" did you happen to reference the earlier post of mine containing a partial list of problems with faith-based initiatives?

[BriHo]

Yeah, I actually cut and pasted all of your "problems" with the faith based initiatives with a bolded "incorrect -- here's why" but I thought the practice to be a bit condescending.

I'll ignore the parts where you referred to foreign based initiatives involving foreign aid since it doesn't go up against Constitutional boundaries and isn't on task, ignore the parts where you implied they should help the homeless by teaching them "MATH AND AGRICULTURE" because it seeemed a bit silly (btw, extra federal and state funds have been given to faith based organisations that give just these things to assisted living tenents, but I still find it a bit silly), as well as the parts where you found examples of egregious errors in grant money.


As far as the prostetylyzing goes, the ability of the federal government to intercede when something illegal occurs, and faith based initiatives not being secular, though, I left you with what I felt to be copious ammounts of information. Here's what Barack Obama said, just for the record:

[quote]“Now, make no mistake, as someone who used to teach constitutional law, I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don’t believe this partnership will endanger that idea – so long as we follow a few basic principles. First, if you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can’t discriminate against them – or against the people you hire – on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we’ll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work.â€

[BriHo]

Oh, and if your opposition to this IS based on your committment to seperation of church and state, versus just an aversion to religion in general, then you may like this:

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/ar ... 16056.html

[York99]

A. the number of Americans who are leaving the U.S. to find a better life.

B. what about Europe really stuck in his craw; the increasingly strong Euro? the higher literacy rates? the lower crime rates?

C. Hmmm. Seems we could learn a few lessons from the old country.

D. The current administration has done so much f***ing damage to this country on so many fronts - I'm not sure there's anybody who can turn it around.

E. So yes, Justin - optimism fading, but I wonder if there was any real cause for it in the first place.

WHOA NELLY!!

This sounds like the Anti-Americanism talk that I always balk at Rush Limbaugh for talking about. I didn't think it actually existed. This is still the greatest country in the history of the world. We're not without our faults, but the net effect is that we're still WAY ahead of the game.

A. Not sure what this number is, but look at the number of people who are trying to get in... through legal and illegal means. WAY eclipses any other country in the world.

B. Maybe it was the Socialism that stifles innovation. Maybe it's the enormous taxes. Maybe it's the lack of true leadership on the world scale.

C. Of course we could learn some lessons from them. But to try and mimic them is a HUGE step backwards.

D. I don't remember who said it first, but it's sometimes attributed to Clinton: "What's right with America can fix what's wrong with America." The original quote is much more elegant, but I couldn't find it.

E. There may be little optimism that we're getting some radical change in the right* direction, but the outlook on America is still very positive. We're still the worldwide leader in many categories, including foreign aide, innovation, production, medical science, and hockey (take that, Canucks!).

*The direction that I and many other people on this board think is the right direction.

Wow, Justin. With your talent for editing, embellishing and recontextualizing there should be a job in media for you somewhere. Nonetheless - point by point:

A) This was part of a discussion I overheard (as mentioned above). I found it interesting enough to try to find a little data. What I found would seem to support the idea that an increasing number of America's best and brightest are looking for opportunities elsewhere. The number of people trying to get into this country is irrelevant to this observation.

B) Perhaps. So, in context of what I wrote above, would you interpret Romney's speech as meaning that strong religious faith can prevent creeping socialism, higher taxes and improve our standing as world leaders?

C) OK, so we basically agree, but I can't seem to find the bit where I used the word "mimic".

D) A truly elegant quote - and uncharacteristically optimistic of you. I can only hope you're right, and I wish I shared your optimism. I could go off on a long digression here involving numbers and projections and give you plenty of reasons for pessimism, or one on prevailing American attitudes, priorities, mores and thought and tell you why I feel decreasingly proud to be a member of the "greatest nation in the world" - a moniker which is highly debatable on several fronts - but to do so makes me by turns sad and angry. I'll spare myself this morning.

E) "We're still the worldwide leader in many categories". Does this not strike you as a statement tinged with slight desperation? Rather like "Hey, the Falklands are still British" or "Hey, I can still use one hand". Incidentally, while the U.S. leads in total dollars spent on foreign aid, as a percentage of GDP the U.S. ranks 21th out the the 22 wealthiest nations according to the OECD. Norway kicks our ass in the generosity department.

Believe it or not, I'm not at all anti-American (and Rush Limbaugh thinks anybody who disagrees with him is "anti-American"). I still hold that our (sadly battered) Constitution was the work of capable men with an extraordinary vision. I also know that reading said document and then watching a few hours of cable news is not a warming experience - and I don't think it's unreasonable to at least speculate that we may well be witnessing America's decline.

Honestly, I think the wind went out of my sails when Bush got re-elected. Once, a mistake. Twice?! I wandered around for months wondering when the land of the free and the home of the brave became the wingnut sanctuary.

I'm not sure what you meant by "your talent for editing, embellishing and recontextualizing." I edited the way I did just to give a small note to which part I am responding, not to try and re-write your words. But let's give the responses point by point.

A. You say "the number of Americans who are leaving the U.S. to find a better life" [quoted from cab driver] and "an increasing number of America's best and brightest are looking for opportunities elsewhere." I'm sure there are a lot of people who leave the United States, but that's a huge assumption to say that it's America's best and brightest; to say that they're looking for opportunities elsewhere, and that they're going to find a better life. The unsaid implication here is that America's turning to shit and it's better in other places. That's the overall tone of the entire post to which I responded; the evidence is pretty strong, so I don't think I'm being too bold in making that inference. People leave for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes the civil unrest in their home country has subsided (sometimes because of The United States). Sometimes they simply find jobs best suited to their particular skill sets elsewhere. Sometimes they're home sick. Sometimes they move for love. Sometimes they move because they hate the polices of America. To say that it's the best and brightest looking for a better life makes it seem like that's the only reason and it's stated to bash America needlessly.

B. I wasn't responding in the context of Romney's speech. I was responding in the context of your response which, as previously discussed, hailed Europe and bashed America, conveniently excluding the negatives of Europe and positives of America. My point was that what you said might have been the truth, it wasn't the whole truth.

C. You didn't say mimic. In the context of the rest of the post, I felt there was a chance that mimicking might have been implied, if not by the author than by the reader. In other words, I was agreeing with what you wrote, but cautioning against taking it too far.

D. I'm very optimistic about the big picture of America. It's the details and the creator of those details [read: politicians, business leaders, etc] that I'm pessimistic about.

E. I don't think it's desperation at all. For one, we DO lead in a lot of categories. The richest people in the world come to America when they've got a serious illness, for one example of many. Another important point is that one reason that the rest of the world is more and more competitive is because of America in many direct and indirect ways. One of our biggest problems in spreading democracy is that we're losing our footing as the top dog by comparison, but not necessarily by actual decline. I welcome the competition. It will make us better in the long run. Coke's biggest asset is Pepsi.

I don't think you're actually anti-American. And I do apologize for any implication there or any other place where I may have seemed to get personal. But the pessimism does appear Anti-American. I totally understand the frustration. But if this country can get past slavery, mccarthy, watergate, civil rights issues, vietnam, prohibition, new coke, wave after wave of anti-immigrant sentiment, and countless other self-inflicted instances of shameful behavior, we can get past this.

As for me, I'm mostly happy when I turn off my TV. Here's a quote from another comic hero of mine:

`CNN is the most depressing thing in the world, man… War! Famine!
AIDS! Death! War! Famine! AIDS! Death! War! Famine! A… You look out
the window… *chirp chirp* *chirp chirp* I want to know where they're
finding this shit, man!' – Bill Hicks, Relentless

[Jeff]

Obama Draws Crowd of Two Hundred Thousand in Berlin
What I find kinda funny (ha ha) about this is what a huge move this is for a non-incumbent political candidate, to attract 200,000 people like that. Or what's really funny is how there's no way McCain could ever pull that off.

[spantell]

Isn't it weird for a candidate to be campaigning overseas? I don't remember that before.

[York99]

Isn't it weird for a candidate to be campaigning overseas? I don't remember that before.

Ben Franklin couldn't have won the presidency in 1837 if it wasn't for his steadfast campaigning in Gaul.

[improvstitute]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BncNpB6IZ9I

also - i think one of the guys on there is a friend of mine from college...weird

[shando]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BncNpB6IZ9I

also - i think one of the guys on there is a friend of mine from college...weird

Also I think the first guy who says "Hope" is Mark Gagliardi from Shiner.

[improvstitute]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BncNpB6IZ9I

also - i think one of the guys on there is a friend of mine from college...weird

Also I think the first guy who says "Hope" is Mark Gagliardi from Shiner.

HA! I thought he looked familiar too. I just couldn't place him. My friend is the guy in the suit the says "This could happen to anybody".

[improvstitute]

The whole series is funny. You can see them at http://www.catchhope.com.

[Miggy]

I just had to get this out there: I received a mailing today from the McCain campaign. I used to subscribe to a bunch of political magazines on both sides of the aisle in an effort to understand politics better going into the 2004 presidential election. As a result, my name got on a bunch of mailing lists from some extreme right and extreme left organizations. It makes for interesting reading when they write to you like you're already on their side.

Anyway....the letter I got today had big bold letters on the outside: "Emergency Telegram from John McCain" and below it, I guess to sound official - "Delivered by the United States Postal Service". Telegram??? Seriously? It's like he's trying to date himself. The letter was a kind of panicky fund-raising request. I found that interesting...not least because it's using the loop-hole in the *McCain*-Feingold campaign finance law that he specifically decried when Kerry used it in 2004 - that he can fund-raise for legal and accounting costs and the value of the tv-time spent saying the required "I'm John McCain and I approved this message."

Whatever...can't wait for this election to be over...