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Dramatic Improv

Discussion of the art and craft of improvisation.

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  • Lants Offline
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Post by Lants »

apiaryist wrote: John Cassavetes' movies were almost completely improvised.
There's actually a lot less improvisation in his films than a lot of people think. He definitely used it, but he was such a good director that even the scenes that weren't improvised seemed improvised... Altman did this a lot too.

Here's a good NPR interview with Peter Falk about Cassavetes

Post by apiaryist »

Lants wrote:
apiaryist wrote: John Cassavetes' movies were almost completely improvised.
There's actually a lot less improvisation in his films than a lot of people think. He definitely used it, but he was such a good director that even the scenes that weren't improvised seemed improvised... Altman did this a lot too.

Here's a good NPR interview with Peter Falk about Cassavetes
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Post by acrouch »

I think that Johnstone interview is a fantastic place to start. And I would start with short form as opposed to diving into dramatic long form.

Start exploring scenes where you're not pushing the funny -- in Maestro and in montage formats with your troupe. When tempted to gag or comment or go for the joke in any way, instead make a character move or a story move. Better yet, in rehearsals, have gag police that come in and drag improvisers screaming off of the stage for going for the joke (sub in another player, or if necessary start a new scene).

Work with subject matter that you genuinely care about. Let's steal Keith's wheel of issues format and give it a shot.

Post by Rachel »

Hi Roy,

I've been meaning to post...here's thought & suggestion to try if you like...

there are some great acting exercises - that can be helpful and fun to play with in improv

here's one: Substitution

when your scene partner enters with their character or point of view - you can let it remind you of someone with whom you already have or have had a strong relationship with and allow yourself to tap into all the real, authentic, juicy feelings, nuances and history you already have there inside you - and then play and heighten them with your scene partner as much as you like...

for example - say (Arthur can I use you as an example? thanks!) so say I'm in a scene with Arthur and he's playing a seemingly grumpy old man.

Something about his character might immediately remind me of my grandfather who I loved and adored and who used to shout a lot.

So Arthur's character might be saying crabby things, or even cruel things - but since I have this whole history and a past at my disposal, I can be there in the moment with Arthur's character AND allow all my feelings and memories about my grandfather to influence me and how I react - and that becomes a point of view to play with....it might go like this...

Arthur's character says mean things - but I react with love and joy because I "know" everything he says is his way of saying I love you. (even if Arthur's character doesn't feel loving toward my character) we now have this game in our relationship to play with and heighten together. Or maybe I feel I have all these things I need to tell him before he dies (even if in the scene Arthur's character is not my grandfather - all the more interesting), or or or....you get it.

* note - this stuff used to put me in my head - so the fun and the skill is to practice allowing the substitution to influence you while staying and playing in the moment with your scene partner(s).

you can also use substitution with objects.

I hope that's helpful.
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Post by jose »

Great topic and some great & interesting thoughts!

A couple of things ...

I think I read a couple things about HARSH on these boards a long time ago and how their shows hadn't been up to snuff (as they had been seen).

Personally, I've both workshopped with Harsh and seen a few of their shows and have seen them do some great stuff. Their shows, in particular, have had scenes that were haunting and harrowing. So, those specifics instances could've just been rough shows ... or not - who knows?

Anyway, this might be a subtle difference (and I hope just not parsing semantics) but Harsh shoots for improvised tragedy - in contrast to improv comedy and different from merely being dramatic or serious.

In talking with Ari, how things came about was just in the course of noticing how horrible acts and instances (rape, abortion, ... the rape of aborted fetuses, etc.) get tossed around flippantly for the sake of humor. If we're doing truth in comedy (and finding comedy in truth), than we should be able to explore and discover in the aftermath of these horrible things - that these horrible things have consequences beyond their immediate impact.

Instead of just being satisfied with chuckling at Wile E. Coyote being crushed under an anvil and popping up a few seconds later in the next roadrunner-chasing vignette, that fact is treated as true. We treat Mr. Coyote as a real character who is a scientific and technical genius rendered into a sad, obsession-addled madman who is killed quite literally by his own devices. We meet his wife who suffered silently as all the love she poured into him was somehow just not enough. We get to see his children weather early adulthood determined not to fall into the same spiral as their father, but still hobbled by his absence.*

The above might be a ridiculous example, but I think it illustrates that, instead of just being merely serious or dramatic, improvised tragedy, in parallel to comedy, takes something that would normally be ridiculous or absurd and treats is as a kind of heightened reality. So, I can see folks not quite taking to it or finding it overwrought or overplayed because it could come off like that.

---

As far as dramatic improv, I think everyone who basically mentioned that dramatic / playing grounded / serious, etc. isn't dichotomically divorced from comedy and that, in fact, there are touches of both in either and that they can even feed each other was right on.

I had the opportunity to play with Bri of Mail Order Bride when Michelle was too sick to do Dangerville. Outside of some Bingo Jams, the rare Phoenix Neutrino scene, and random workshops, we hadn't really performed with each other. We performed as Jim Dunlop and did a single, real-time scene on the suggestion of "curfew." As an older, aging father wary of his daughter's impending womanhood and a daughter starting to hop into the torrid world of boys, partying, and sex, we had a pretty sweet show that, though funny, had real moments of people being affected by each other.

(Although really quickly: Yes, Jastroch, some folks confuse playing slow & patient with being an absolute lump on stage. There definitely is a difference ...)

Anyway, with improv that allows for more dramatic / thoughtful / serious moments of emotional depth, whether for the sake of drama or comedy, I think the way to go about it is to focus on characters & relationship (relationship not just in terms of "father - daughter," "brother - sister," or "deli dude - customer," but relationship in terms of literally relating to each other, affecting and being affected by each other). To be fair, though, that's my perspective on improvised scenework regardless. (Even though, I obviously brake for silliness, too.)

With character and relationship at the forefront, plot, for my own personal purposes, only matters in how it affects the characters and their relationships.

My favorite example of that is "Lost in Translation."

To describe it to someone who has never seen it, only in terms of plot (old dude is in Japan meets a young girl there, they hangout, and then they go their separate ways), is to bore them.

In terms of what's going on with the characters and their relationship, though, there's a lot of complex, layered stuff going on that is ultimately engaging and is what we connect to.

(As a sidenote, from my experiences, people who saw the film in a theater loved it while people who caught it on video either thought it was just okay or hated it - that's in general. Bill Binder says that that's because the immensity of Tokyo is showcased on the big screen in such a way that it really conveys the sense of alienation that the characters feel - yet another point of connection for the audience. On home screen or on a laptop, that feeling doesn't quite pop up.)

---

As far as practical exercises to achieve dramatic improv, I think one could probably find news articles and online stories about serious or tragic situations and improvise those situations while focusing on playing those characters honest and truthfully.

Also, it might be neat to have a person step out to give a monologue about a personal experience (based on a suggestion or not) and to create scenes based on that (not as much in an Armando way, just taking elements). That it is a fellow teammate's personal experience hopefully will help a little in the area of keeping those scenes honest and real. What also helps is to relate the monologue back to your own experieces and playing that, instead of merely reenacting what was mentioned in the monologue.

---

As far as formats or structures, other than something that facilitates following specific characters once they've been established, focusing on thematic elements might be a good way to go about it.

When I was thinking about Harsh's shows, I thought about how while characters might come back here and there, they don't set up a cast of characters that they follow. They don't only do a montage of these tragic scenes as much as thematic throughlines and connections start to pop up.

Also, someone mentioned how to make dramatic improv shows resonant in the same way as Blade Runner or Fight Club. I think having a form that allows / facilitates things thematically would be a way to get folks to connect to it (beyond just the requisite undertaking good work).

We might not have been the young wife of a superstar photographer and we might never be a washed up actor doing commercial work in Japan, but we've all experienced alienation, unexpected connection with someone we can't or won't get romantically involved with, and finding ourselves at a crossroads.


---

*(Maybe we also flashback and see Wile E. Coyote run into the wolf (from the shorts where the wolf & the sheep dog clock in) that looks almost exactly like him at the store!)
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Post by York99 »

jose wrote: If we're doing truth in comedy (and finding comedy in truth), than we should be able to explore and discover in the aftermath of these horrible things - that these horrible things have consequences beyond their immediate impact.
I think this is my biggest problem. They play the melodramatic only (in what I've seen) and not the truth. More often than not, people bottle things up or displace their anger rather than sobbing on their knees for 35 minutes. Another thing people (I know you're all on board with this, though it's not exclusive to comedians) do after a tragedy is find humor. They never make an off-color joke as a defense mechanism. That's truth.

Harsh and others doing trajedy too often play what they FEEL they would do after a horrible event, rather than what they would really do.
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Post by kbadr »

York99 wrote:Another thing people (I know you're all on board with this, though it's not exclusive to comedians) do after a tragedy is find humor. They never make an off-color joke as a defense mechanism. That's truth.
Either there's a typo here, or I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying find humor after tragedy, as long as it's not off-color?

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Post by York99 »

I'm saying Harsh doesn't make off-color humor in the aftermath of the tragedy.

Real people do.
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Post by Roy Janik »

I think Jose was saying that Harsh does improvised Tragedy, with a capital T, in which case I guess I could understand why there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. I mean, Oedipus friggin' gouges out his eyes.
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Post by kbadr »

York99 wrote:I'm saying Harsh doesn't make off-color humor in the aftermath of the tragedy.

Real people do.
Oh, "they" referred to Harsh.

Stupid English language.

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Post by York99 »

Roy Janik wrote:I think Jose was saying that Harsh does improvised Tragedy, with a capital T, in which case I guess I could understand why there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. I mean, Oedipus friggin' gouges out his eyes.
That's valid, but what is the counterpart on the comedy end of that spectrum? It's probably something like a clown. I have nothing against clowns, but the humor is very basic. That's why you see clowns more at children's parties than at adult functions.
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Post by jose »

Hm - awesome thoughts, folks - you have my engine revving!

Before I get too far, I did want to mention something that might frame any particular discusson on Harsh a little differently. I think that Harsh, coming from the viewpoint of creating improvised tragedy, kind of throws off any of the shackles / obligations / conventions of improvised comedy. (That's not to say that I haven't seen authentic-laugh-inducing stuff from them, but more often than not it's not from the characters being funny or cracking wise.)

Also, the scenes that Harsh does, in my own opinion, have kind of an expressionist tinge to them (for lack of a better word or phrase - and I kind of feel like a jerk who uses the term "Kafkaesque"). So, I think the focus is on the intensity of characters experiencing and expressing the emotions that we normally supress in our non-improv life (as you alluded to, and I'll mention more on that in a minute). It's characters dealing with things in an intense way rather than the rhythm of the average improv scene where it's:

- either we discover something awful / horrible about a person (either that they've done or had done to them) or we see something awful / horrible happen on stage

- one of the characters says something clever or witty in line with their character or what has been established earlier (either in that particular scene or just earlier in the show)

- audience laughs

- there's an edit or someone hits the lights

When I mentioned getting to explore the aftermath of horrible scenes beyond just its immediate impact, included in that was exploring that emotionally, rather than just people dealing with it. As you mentioned, in real life, people have defense mechanisms and we tend to deal with intense shit by suppressing it or avoiding it or, yes, even finding humor in it.

There are a couple of things here ...

A)

I think that Harsh, like The Scramble (and I know that a lot of the principles, techniques, and thoughts behind The Scramble have been very influential on Harsh), trusts the audience's intelligence and creates scenes / shows with the understanding that the audience will contextualize what they see, to process it as they need to. In some cases, depending on the audience, that means what happens on stage will elicit disgust, sympathy, or even humor in the eyes of the audience.

That, to me, eliminates the need to have someone comment on what's going on or to make something funny from within the scene or show. Instead of seeing something gloriously fucked up and being given permission to laugh at it by how the characters within the scene / show react, audience members give themselves permission to react however they want.

B)

Depicting reality and truth in improv is a tricky, slippery paradox of sorts.

First off, I personally think the relationship between reality and truth ranges from eclipse-level allignment to being weirdly tenuous.

If someone gets caught up in not being able to watch Pixar's "Cars" because it's not realistic, they end up missing out on the truth(s) it explores.

If you've read DC Comics' "Wasteland," which are about as close to Del's biography as we're gonna get, he mentions after some vignettes something to the effect of "About 75% of what's depicted here is actually true. What's not true made it a better story, making it even truer."

In a similar way, I think that in improv, while we place a premium on being able to be grounded, realistic, and to react to things & people how we really would, we often don't. That's not because we lack integrity as improvisors or artists - it's because we (performers and audiences) want to actually see people being affected by other people and what's going on. That often wouldn't happen if we were to play absolutely realistic. As improv and theatre, we're kind of creating / presenting a heightened reality for the sake of creating effective, relevant theatre & comedy - i.e. "making it even truer."

In real life, we often don't have the conversations we need to have with the people we know and love (or maybe hate). Yet, we do it all the time in improv - to not do so is to bridge, not start in the "middle" of the scene, or however you want to describe getting to and dealing with the issue(s) at hand.

In real life, we mostly try to avoid contact & interaction with random strangers. If we had to depict on stage how waiting for a bus actually plays out in real life, it would be mind numbingly boring for the most part. In improv, waiting for a bus ends up being a hoot in some way (assuming that it's at least a solid scene, of course).

I'm a huge fan of playing and being grounded in reality with honest emotions & reactions (even with my penchant for silliness, too). I think, though, that as much as we might have the goal of reacting as we really would in real life, who knows how we would really react? I've seen things on tv or in movies and thought that I'd handle things much differently, but who really knows?

In terms of improv, how would I really react to being challenged to a breakdancing duel by President Robocop?

I have no idea.

That's why working from an emotional point of view is so great because how we feel about something is probably as close as we're gonna get to knowing how we'd react to a given set of circumstances, outside of actually experiencing it.

One of my favorite quotes comes from Catherine Breillat.

I know pretty much nothing about her work or her films - who knows if I'd hate them?

But she's quoted as saying, "The point of art is not to create reality, but verity."

For me, that rings true. I can't say that I always achieve that in everything I do, but it's a good thing to be mindful of.

As far as Harsh ... I obviously can't speak for them, but it seems that they've placed focus on exploring those emotional truths to the point of bending the reality. I can't say if they always achieve or exemplify that ideal, or if it always makes for a great show that everyone enjoys or connects with in some way, but it is what it is and I'd imagine it would probably be worse if what they did was universally lauded or didn't elicit strong opinions one way or another.

Please consider this long diatribe my official declaration of candidacy to oppose President Robocop in this year's election.
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Post by York99 »

You make some good points and some points I don't think I understand [see A)].

Of course "truth" in comedy is a bent truth. That's just a nice title to get going. There's a whole book by that name behind the title.

The problem I have with them is that their reaction to tragedy is so exaggerated that there's little actual truth being explored. To perhaps unfairly oversimplify, the end result is just a bunch of fake crying that ends up being more funny because it's ridiculous than emotional because it inpires empathy.
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Post by York99 »

I should add this point to be fair, though I don't know if it's truly relevant:

Although it's not explicitly stated, improv is implied to be funny. When I'm at an improv festival and EVERY other improv show I've seen there and nearly EVERY other improv show I've seen EVER are funny, I'm expecting comedy. To drop a tragedy bomb without warning can catch an audience off guard and perhaps even put them in a defensive mindset.

This COULD explain partially why I (and several others) did not care for them the first time I saw them. However, the second time I saw them I was actively trying to give them a second chance. I love Ari and wanted to love his show. I did not. Although to be fair again, I was half drunk and had Cargill breaking me up the whole time. Go figure.
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Post by ChrisTrew.Com »

Cargill offered me $500 to nut a fart out during the show.
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