Sorry to kick off yet another new topic, but this was too interesting to let fly under the radar. From Tennessee, no less..
http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_108083.asp
Wow...
Vets day observation
If you must!
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- mpbrockman Offline
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As a combat veteran of the Vietnam War and as a person who hates needless war, warmongering and phony displays of patriotism, I despise Memorial Day because America does not truly honor her war dead, but dishonors them.
The only way to truly honor our war dead and those that have fought in our wars would be to tell the truth about why they died and why they fought and why there must come a day – in honor of them – when we must put a stop to needless war and the killing and maiming, the ruining of lives and the heartbreak and suffering that comes from it.
Interesting...though I'd invite you to sit by my father on Memorial Day or Veteran's Day and tell him we're dishonoring our dead with speeches and parades.
I guess what gets me about this is that war is many different things to many different people. Regardless of whether Vietnam was right or wrong, my father went with one intention, he went to fight in the hopes that what he was doing would allow his children not to. A sentiment that echos--in a form--the one above and one most of his fellow soldiers had, I'm sure. I'm going to war in hopes that there will be no more wars.
It isn't that my father overly reveres Memorial Day, but there is a part of him I'm sure that wants those men he fought beside to be remembered. Sure politicians use it as a photo op, but does that make it wrong or false? Does the mayor marching at the head of a community parade for the press coverage mean that the other 500 veterans marching there behind him, or the thousands lining the streets don't mean it? That their actions were "phony displays of patriotism?" OK, so most people shop and cook out and don't really remember what the day means, but does that dishonor those men who died whose families celebrate their memory and DO remember them on this day?
A war story on remembering the dead:
My dad got back from Vietnam and went back to school. About that time, a traveling bunch of war protestors showed up on campus. Their big thing was tearing down flags from school falg poles and they were known for it. When my father, who had only literally left the war zone just a few days before, heard he called up several veteran friends and they all went down to the flag pole. They didn't go to cause trouble, to fight, to get press attention. But they went to counter-protest by protecting the flag. They circled the flagpole and stood there as the other group approached. A heated verbal battle ensued. The stand-off was pitched and prolonged until my father--apparently calm as could be--stared the head of the other group down (which let me tell you, you do NOT know fear until you've been on the other end of that) and said that for right or wrong, his friends fought and bled and died for that flag. That they still were. And even back on American soil he'd die himself before watching someone desecrate it in front of him while insulting those men and friends. At times like that he didn't care so much why they died, only *that* they died, and that they died in service of that symbol flapping above them.
That was the only school's flag that that group did not tear down in their multi-campus tour.
The point is, you may not agree, but it is short-sighted, ignorant, pompous, and wrong to say that "the only way to truly honor our war dead" is to stop needless wars. Yes, that is one way. One big way, in fact, but another fact is that wars haven't stopped and until they do you shouldn't insult, discount, or lessen those who do remember in your wide-flung net of making Memorial Day a falsehood and front for political schills with an agenda (probably wilst doing so for your own agenda).
The only way to truly honor our war dead and those that have fought in our wars would be to tell the truth about why they died and why they fought and why there must come a day – in honor of them – when we must put a stop to needless war and the killing and maiming, the ruining of lives and the heartbreak and suffering that comes from it.
Interesting...though I'd invite you to sit by my father on Memorial Day or Veteran's Day and tell him we're dishonoring our dead with speeches and parades.
I guess what gets me about this is that war is many different things to many different people. Regardless of whether Vietnam was right or wrong, my father went with one intention, he went to fight in the hopes that what he was doing would allow his children not to. A sentiment that echos--in a form--the one above and one most of his fellow soldiers had, I'm sure. I'm going to war in hopes that there will be no more wars.
It isn't that my father overly reveres Memorial Day, but there is a part of him I'm sure that wants those men he fought beside to be remembered. Sure politicians use it as a photo op, but does that make it wrong or false? Does the mayor marching at the head of a community parade for the press coverage mean that the other 500 veterans marching there behind him, or the thousands lining the streets don't mean it? That their actions were "phony displays of patriotism?" OK, so most people shop and cook out and don't really remember what the day means, but does that dishonor those men who died whose families celebrate their memory and DO remember them on this day?
A war story on remembering the dead:
My dad got back from Vietnam and went back to school. About that time, a traveling bunch of war protestors showed up on campus. Their big thing was tearing down flags from school falg poles and they were known for it. When my father, who had only literally left the war zone just a few days before, heard he called up several veteran friends and they all went down to the flag pole. They didn't go to cause trouble, to fight, to get press attention. But they went to counter-protest by protecting the flag. They circled the flagpole and stood there as the other group approached. A heated verbal battle ensued. The stand-off was pitched and prolonged until my father--apparently calm as could be--stared the head of the other group down (which let me tell you, you do NOT know fear until you've been on the other end of that) and said that for right or wrong, his friends fought and bled and died for that flag. That they still were. And even back on American soil he'd die himself before watching someone desecrate it in front of him while insulting those men and friends. At times like that he didn't care so much why they died, only *that* they died, and that they died in service of that symbol flapping above them.
That was the only school's flag that that group did not tear down in their multi-campus tour.
The point is, you may not agree, but it is short-sighted, ignorant, pompous, and wrong to say that "the only way to truly honor our war dead" is to stop needless wars. Yes, that is one way. One big way, in fact, but another fact is that wars haven't stopped and until they do you shouldn't insult, discount, or lessen those who do remember in your wide-flung net of making Memorial Day a falsehood and front for political schills with an agenda (probably wilst doing so for your own agenda).
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- mpbrockman Offline
- Posts: 2734
- Joined: April 12th, 2007, 6:26 pm
- Location: ATX
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Wesley wrote:The point is, you may not agree, but it is short-sighted, ignorant, pompous, and wrong to say that "the only way to truly honor our war dead" is to stop needless wars. Yes, that is one way. One big way, in fact, but another fact is that wars haven't stopped and until they do you shouldn't insult, discount, or lessen those who do remember in your wide-flung net of making Memorial Day a falsehood and front for political schills with an agenda (probably wilst doing so for your own agenda).
Hmmm... I'm going to assume this is aimed at the veteran writer of the letter I posted the link to, although if it's aimed at me I've certainly been called worse (I'm not sure what "my agenda" would be though...).
I would agree with the point earlier in your post that the writer went over the top in implying parades dishonored the dead. I lost one grandfather (an RAAF pilot) in WWII; and I like to pull out a few pictures and wonder what he was like on Memorial Day.
My other grandfather saw action with the US Navy in the Coral Sea and was later an engineer with the Manhattan Project. After the war he became a priest and spent a lot of time opposing the sort of war we're involved in now. I share this with you because I suspect your father and my grandfather have been big influences on us. A conversation between the two of them would have been, no doubt, most edifying.
What I did take away from the letter was support for the idea that saying lives were wasted doesn't dishonor the dead. It dishonors the leaders who sent them there and it should provoke the anger I sensed in your post. But strong disapproval of the war in no way implies disparagement of our troops. The way returning troops of your father's era were treated was disgraceful and I hope war protesters of this era will remember that.
I am, and I think the writer of the letter is, perpetually a little stunned by the perception that "support troops" and "oppose war" are mutually exclusive. I see nothing schizophrenic in this. Does one have to agree with the cause a soldier died for in order to admire the soldier's courage and dedication? Perhaps someone would be good enough to clear that up for me (no sarcasm intended).
Wes - I could go on for a while about why I think this is politically and strategically a stupid war and people's lives are being wasted. But I don't think that's the issue that had you using words like "ignorant" and "pompous". I would respond that I, too, wish to honor the dead of this and other conflicts. But I also would like some much, much better answers to the question "Why did they die?".
Hmmm... I'm going to assume this is aimed at the veteran writer of the letter I posted the link to...
For clarity, yes, it was aimed at the original author, not you.
I am, and I think the writer of the letter is, perpetually a little stunned by the perception that "support troops" and "oppose war" are mutually exclusive.
And I agree. I don't find the two at odds at all.
For clarity, yes, it was aimed at the original author, not you.
I am, and I think the writer of the letter is, perpetually a little stunned by the perception that "support troops" and "oppose war" are mutually exclusive.
And I agree. I don't find the two at odds at all.