The audience always sees that moment; odds are they know what the scene is about or what the game is more often and sooner than we do (even if it's on an unconscious level). And when we miss or bail on those initial offers/initiations/whatever, they feel cheated and misled and they check out.bradisntclever wrote:I don't think the average audience member can see this initial key moment in a scene. Sure, they may be able to pick up on it halfway through the game, but that's irrelevant.
What doesn't the audience see?
Discussion of the art and craft of improvisation.
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- bradisntclever Offline
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I reflected on this for a while and I see what you mean. It caused a decent paradigm shift in my head and it's pretty disorienting. I guess my post is more of a "what improvisers don't see" example.acrouch wrote:The audience always sees that moment; odds are they know what the scene is about or what the game is more often and sooner than we do (even if it's on an unconscious level). And when we miss or bail on those initial offers/initiations/whatever, they feel cheated and misled and they check out.bradisntclever wrote:I don't think the average audience member can see this initial key moment in a scene. Sure, they may be able to pick up on it halfway through the game, but that's irrelevant.
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- Justin D. Offline
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bradisntclever wrote:I reflected on this for a while and I see what you mean. It caused a decent paradigm shift in my head and it's pretty disorienting. I guess my post is more of a "what improvisers don't see" example.acrouch wrote:The audience always sees that moment; odds are they know what the scene is about or what the game is more often and sooner than we do (even if it's on an unconscious level). And when we miss or bail on those initial offers/initiations/whatever, they feel cheated and misled and they check out.bradisntclever wrote:I don't think the average audience member can see this initial key moment in a scene. Sure, they may be able to pick up on it halfway through the game, but that's irrelevant.
You just wanted to use the word paradigm in a sentence where the sentence wasn't, "I know what the word paradigm means."
I was going to start a "what improvisers don't see" thread, but maybe posting in here is as good as a new one.
It never fails to amaze me how selfish improvisers, including (and perhaps sometimes more so) very experienced improvisers, can be on stage when it comes to their audience. Sure, there is and needs to be a degree of selfishness when on stage in order to put on a good show (one must feel personally inspired), but like all things, it can go too far.
One classic example is not using a suggestion. I don't think it always needs to be used literally, but the audience (in particular the audience member that gave it and his or her friends) needs and wants to see it influencing the piece somehow.
I'm always shocked at the laissez faire attitude of improvisers when they forget a suggestion and are like "oh well, it was still a good show." In fact, I've been called out for forgetting a suggestion by audience members leaving a show (post Cops and Lawyers, and we even had whiteboards and wrote the suggestions down! "That was really fun, but you never used my suggestion of garbage man and I was waiting the whole time"). Don't kid yourself, the audience DOES remember the suggestion--even 72 minutes later. That's the game they are playing. If you don't want one or aren't going to use it, don't take it. Likewise, don't burn it up right away because that is the game with them. The longer you delay gratification, the more they seem to enjoy it.
(And be careful playing games with a suggestion. I saw one time someone take a suggestion for a show, then play a word association game and start with a different word and the guy that gave the suggestion (sitting right in front of me) leaned over to his wife and said "Ice hockey? I thought I said BBQ?" and he never fully checked back into the show after that.)
The point is, that sometimes we as improvisers get so caught up in our own playgrounds that we forget to really and truly take care of the audience and manipulate their experience into the best time possible. They are paying to watch us and we often just make assumptions about what they want and what they react to.
Just as we do things to improve our shows that the audience doesn't see, we should never forget that they audience is giving off tells and signals to to improve their own experience that we often don't see.
(Personally, I now go to improv shows less for improv and more to watch the audience for an hour. In fact, my next experiment to strenghen my own stage abilities is to use two cameras to tape the audience and the show at the same time and watch them back side-by-side to see what audience members react to, when, and why. To not just talk abstractly or anecdotally about what an audience does and doesn't want, like, or respond to, but to actually study the audience intently for these clues.)
It never fails to amaze me how selfish improvisers, including (and perhaps sometimes more so) very experienced improvisers, can be on stage when it comes to their audience. Sure, there is and needs to be a degree of selfishness when on stage in order to put on a good show (one must feel personally inspired), but like all things, it can go too far.
One classic example is not using a suggestion. I don't think it always needs to be used literally, but the audience (in particular the audience member that gave it and his or her friends) needs and wants to see it influencing the piece somehow.
I'm always shocked at the laissez faire attitude of improvisers when they forget a suggestion and are like "oh well, it was still a good show." In fact, I've been called out for forgetting a suggestion by audience members leaving a show (post Cops and Lawyers, and we even had whiteboards and wrote the suggestions down! "That was really fun, but you never used my suggestion of garbage man and I was waiting the whole time"). Don't kid yourself, the audience DOES remember the suggestion--even 72 minutes later. That's the game they are playing. If you don't want one or aren't going to use it, don't take it. Likewise, don't burn it up right away because that is the game with them. The longer you delay gratification, the more they seem to enjoy it.
(And be careful playing games with a suggestion. I saw one time someone take a suggestion for a show, then play a word association game and start with a different word and the guy that gave the suggestion (sitting right in front of me) leaned over to his wife and said "Ice hockey? I thought I said BBQ?" and he never fully checked back into the show after that.)
The point is, that sometimes we as improvisers get so caught up in our own playgrounds that we forget to really and truly take care of the audience and manipulate their experience into the best time possible. They are paying to watch us and we often just make assumptions about what they want and what they react to.
Just as we do things to improve our shows that the audience doesn't see, we should never forget that they audience is giving off tells and signals to to improve their own experience that we often don't see.
(Personally, I now go to improv shows less for improv and more to watch the audience for an hour. In fact, my next experiment to strenghen my own stage abilities is to use two cameras to tape the audience and the show at the same time and watch them back side-by-side to see what audience members react to, when, and why. To not just talk abstractly or anecdotally about what an audience does and doesn't want, like, or respond to, but to actually study the audience intently for these clues.)
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- kbadr Offline
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While I can sympathize with the audience sentiment regarding the use/mis-use of the suggestion, I don't think improvisers do it on purpose.
I personally find myself forgetting what the suggestion even was halfway through the show, even if it is playing a major part in the story being told. This is simply because I'm very much in the show, rather than being in my head analyzing everything.
And what I really meant by my question (which was only touched upon by a few replies) was "what are more experienced improvisers doing that can't be physically seen by audience members or younger improvisers studying the performance?"
I personally find myself forgetting what the suggestion even was halfway through the show, even if it is playing a major part in the story being told. This is simply because I'm very much in the show, rather than being in my head analyzing everything.
And what I really meant by my question (which was only touched upon by a few replies) was "what are more experienced improvisers doing that can't be physically seen by audience members or younger improvisers studying the performance?"
Last edited by kbadr on March 12th, 2007, 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You work your life away and what do they give?
You're only killing yourself to live
Granted, the suggestion is just an example of the many ways we misread or ignore the audience at our peril. But it is a common example of how we get so caught up in ourselves over the ones we are supposedly performing for and who dropped money to see us. The audience member who I saw disengage when his suggestion was shat upon didn't really care that the people on stage were in the zone; he felt disconnected. The point is for everything we do that is smoke and mirrors to the audience, they are sending signals back that we must read as well. A truly successful show goes both ways.
As to the original question, here are the things I personally love to see experienced players do (and that I most respect) that younger players and audience members may not consciously catch:
--maintain the flow, pace, and direction of the story arc. They pull back if it is progressing too fast or add elements to move it along if it lags.
--set other players up for success. Quality players stop trying to be stage clowns themselves and set others up, often without the other person knowing it. You can see good team players in the alphabet game. A good, experienced player will subtly set up the next letter for the less expereinced player by endowing a name or place, for example, mid-sentence that the person can then organically use without realizing it was actually handed to them.
--Remain invisible. (particularly in walk-on and side support); an experienced player often knows not only when to do a walk-in (and not steal the scene with it, but make a new offer and get back out) or when to add side-support (like sound effects), but when NOT to do these things. Not every cabinet has or needs a whirring gizmo inside it. Not every restaurant even needs a waiter. Experienced players only add to scenes when they have something to add. Even if they are on stage the whole time, I've seen high-level players sip a drink and stay silent for 5 minutes because their talking simply wasn't necessary and would have been distracting.
--experienced players act normally. They are waiters who take a drink order and leave (they don't spill it or dawdle and talk wihtout reason). Then come back and take a meal order and leave. They are good at generally adding to the scene by NOT adding to the scene. They are realistic decor, an honest, ordinary backdrop against which the extraordinary scene plays itself. They are contrast and they serve as the bridge back to the reality of our everyday world.
--edit. Experienced players edit at the right time so that the audience ends on the high. Again, this is one of those things that isn't and shouldn't be noticed when done right. It is the lack of an edit at the right time that stands out, not the use of a well-timed one.
--befriend the audience. Expereinced players make themselves loved, even when playing bad guys. They work with the audience so that the audience wants to see them back on stage. then they use this power to play the audience to maximum effect, giving them what they want in the right doses. I've seen this in Maestro a lot (Mike K is really good at it). Players endear themselves to the audience and the audience wants to see them succeed. They don't know why, they just do. I've seen many scenes that were a 3 technically score a rousing 5 because the audience just loved that player and that player could do no wrong. Experienced players garner this love subtly, but consistently without breaking the 4th wall to do so.
As to the original question, here are the things I personally love to see experienced players do (and that I most respect) that younger players and audience members may not consciously catch:
--maintain the flow, pace, and direction of the story arc. They pull back if it is progressing too fast or add elements to move it along if it lags.
--set other players up for success. Quality players stop trying to be stage clowns themselves and set others up, often without the other person knowing it. You can see good team players in the alphabet game. A good, experienced player will subtly set up the next letter for the less expereinced player by endowing a name or place, for example, mid-sentence that the person can then organically use without realizing it was actually handed to them.
--Remain invisible. (particularly in walk-on and side support); an experienced player often knows not only when to do a walk-in (and not steal the scene with it, but make a new offer and get back out) or when to add side-support (like sound effects), but when NOT to do these things. Not every cabinet has or needs a whirring gizmo inside it. Not every restaurant even needs a waiter. Experienced players only add to scenes when they have something to add. Even if they are on stage the whole time, I've seen high-level players sip a drink and stay silent for 5 minutes because their talking simply wasn't necessary and would have been distracting.
--experienced players act normally. They are waiters who take a drink order and leave (they don't spill it or dawdle and talk wihtout reason). Then come back and take a meal order and leave. They are good at generally adding to the scene by NOT adding to the scene. They are realistic decor, an honest, ordinary backdrop against which the extraordinary scene plays itself. They are contrast and they serve as the bridge back to the reality of our everyday world.
--edit. Experienced players edit at the right time so that the audience ends on the high. Again, this is one of those things that isn't and shouldn't be noticed when done right. It is the lack of an edit at the right time that stands out, not the use of a well-timed one.
--befriend the audience. Expereinced players make themselves loved, even when playing bad guys. They work with the audience so that the audience wants to see them back on stage. then they use this power to play the audience to maximum effect, giving them what they want in the right doses. I've seen this in Maestro a lot (Mike K is really good at it). Players endear themselves to the audience and the audience wants to see them succeed. They don't know why, they just do. I've seen many scenes that were a 3 technically score a rousing 5 because the audience just loved that player and that player could do no wrong. Experienced players garner this love subtly, but consistently without breaking the 4th wall to do so.
I don't mean that it has to be cartoony. I just mean that when you are playing loud, so is your body. This is almost always the case. If your scene is that you are quiet and reserved, then that is one thing. But I have never seen a good improv scene that didn't require motion. Usually big motion to indicate the action. "Pushing a shopping cart" can't be done with your head down, your hands at your sides, and your feet still. Try it off stage...if you can get that shopping cart to move by sheer force of intent, then I will concede your full point.kaci_beeler wrote:haha row 15?Pendark wrote:But for instance, if you are in the process of looking in the direction of another performer in the scene, how do we know you are looking at them, unless your whole head or body turns in the direction of that performer? If you just move the eyes, how does the guy in row 15 know you moved your eyes?
This is rarely an issue for our main three theaters.
I think it is only an slight issue for playing the downstairs at the Hideout (it's larger than the other two stages but not by any means huge), the mainstage at Ester's at OOB or when traveling to other cities to play festivals on their stages.
Acting in improv should not be changed so that it is different from acting on-stage in a scripted work. You can have outlandish, insane, loud characters in a scripted play and you can have quiet, contemplative characters who may reveal only parts of their actions/intentions/motivations through subtleties.
You may need to always be heard by row 15, but if row 15 can't see all of your facial expressions, then they just have to miss out.
The idea of improv acting being big and cartoony when compared to scripted theatre is a contrivance. Improv is not always a children's show, audiences don't always need things to be BIG (unless the style you are going for is BIG).
I want to stamp out this gross assumption audiences have about improv.
I think current improv in Austin is doing a good job of that overall right now.
The people who you need to be the most "obvious" to is your scene partner/s. If they can't gel with you and get what you're doing (unless you're confusing them on purpose), then you're probably doing something wrong.
"That's all there is to life...just a little laugh, a little tear." (Lon Chaney in The Unholy Three)
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- bradisntclever Offline
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It's a given that you probably shouldn't stand still if you're supposed to be participating in an active role in a scene. I don't think you have to have big motion though to be successful with space work (or general acting) in a scene. There can be power in subtlety and I'm willing to bet your definition of "big motion" is probably less extreme than a lot of us are interpreting it. I wouldn't consider pushing a shopping cart a "big motion" if it were the same thing as pushing an invisible cart in a storePendark wrote:I don't mean that it has to be cartoony. I just mean that when you are playing loud, so is your body. This is almost always the case. If your scene is that you are quiet and reserved, then that is one thing. But I have never seen a good improv scene that didn't require motion. Usually big motion to indicate the action. "Pushing a shopping cart" can't be done with your head down, your hands at your sides, and your feet still. Try it off stage...if you can get that shopping cart to move by sheer force of intent, then I will concede your full point.
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- DollarBill Offline
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Nice. Yeah, I give the audience a lot of credit. They see me comin' a mile away. I try and play like the audience is a few steps ahead.phlounderphil wrote:The audience doesn't see what's underneath our clothes.
However, they do seem to be able to see what's underneath our skin.
This has always slightly confused me.
They call me Dollar Bill 'cause I always make sense.
Re: What doesn't the audience see?
They are remembering everything that's happened/been said in that scene/show. And using that as a playground for the rest of the scene/show.kbadr wrote:What are the improvisers doing that an observer can't actually *see*?
Similarly, I agree with Asaf so much I'm going to paste what he wrote again here:
Asaf wrote:In the first few seconds, when you are making a physical initiation that you then drop because you think your scene partner has "beat you to it." That drop is something that the audience sees. And even if after the scene they are not aware enough about it to say that it happened, it registers. And specifically it registers as an Oops.
The audience doesn't see you listening to them, yet I think this is also really important. If we hear what is going on in the audience and react to it then we are letting them into the show in a way that is pleasing. As a clown I often look directly into the eyes of my little audiences. It helps me stay grounded and remember who I'm there for. In Improv I usually can't see beyond the first row so that doesn't work as well.
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- HerrHerr Offline
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I knew it! You hated Foolish Mortals! That suggestion game was done during an FM show!Wesley wrote:(And be careful playing games with a suggestion. I saw one time someone take a suggestion for a show, then play a word association game and start with a different word and the guy that gave the suggestion (sitting right in front of me) leaned over to his wife and said "Ice hockey? I thought I said BBQ?" and he never fully checked back into the show after that.)
Screw that inbred can of soup in the audience for not understanding something as simple as word association. Next time he can check out of the theater itself.
And thanks for your honesty, Wes, about how much you you hated FM. Now the air is cleared...
Sometimes it's a form of love just to talk to somebody that you have nothing in common with and still be fascinated by their presence.
--David Byrne
--David Byrne