Logo Final Stretch

[valetoile]

I'm starting a new thread so it doesn't get lost.

At the advertising meeting on Tuesday we decided to choose a logo officially at the general meeting coming up. The favorite ideas so far are:

The kitchen sink, perhaps in combination with Craig's "thumbs up" logo, based off the motto, "Everything from Nothing."

A new motto based around the idea of "organic comedy" and riffing off organic foods.

I still like the idea of hop-scotch/tic-tac-toe, maybe with the motto "Come play with us!"

Here's how we're going to choose: Anyone who is interested in any of these ideas, or with any other ideas, will work together to come up with a cohesive design presentation for the meeting. This should include what the logo will look like on a T-shirt, on letterheads, on stationary, ideas for marketing and promotion in other ways--basically a plan for how the logo/motto will be used extensively. I hope that people will collaborate and work on several different ideas so that the presentations at our meeting represent several well-thought out designs and marketing strategies. Then everyone will vote!

[Wesley]

Another important idea that came up is the distinction between a "brand" logo and a "campaign" logo, a distinction I personally was failing to consider and I bet others were, too.
For example, Coke has a brand label in the fancy font and white swish line, but they use santa claus and polar bears as seasonal campaign logos. Same thing with Taco Bell's official logo and their short-term chihuaua use (or Geico and the gecko).

One idea that came up was selecting one logo (leading contender Craig's thumb's up in the a) as a "corporate" or "official" logo for letterhead and branding. That logo would serve as an umbrella and we could then launch individual short-term campaigns under that umbrella using things like the sink (everything from nothing) or the vegetables (organic comedy idea).
One reason for this was the fear that having a novelty logo, like a sink, would wear out after a year or two.

[Evilpandabear]

i loved the "organic impov" logo with the potato.

oh, lots of great ideas came out of the experience meeting, can't wait for the next AIC meeting!

[acrouch]

BATS Improv in San Francisco is an interesting model. For the longest time their logo and brand was cute little cartoon bats laughing and doing other improv-related things. At some point a couple years ago they made the switch to a much more corporate-looking logo. For what reasons and whether it's working out for them, I can't testify.

http://www.improv.org

[phlounderphil]

"Novelty Logo?"

I bet alot of people said the same thing about the 3-d Glasses for UCB. And look where it's gotten them. It's a quirky, random, out-there logo with no actual affiliation to the name or the business. In fact, I'd venture a guess that the origin of their logo is somewhat similar to the origin of this kitchen sink idea.

My point being. Two logos is a bad idea (now I was pretty sure for awhile I was co-chairing the logo/branding committee, but I guess Valerie's pretty much stolen that title away from me because she's been doing all these logo-related things without even including me, but that's another point). My point being, TWO LOGOS IS A BAD IDEA!

We should pick one logo dammit. We cannot be confusing people with two logos. Personally, I hate the thumbs up, it's bland, simple and way too common. A thumbs up does NOT make people think, and (at least for me) it does not awaken any nascent thoughts of playfulness and childhood. A kitchen sink, while totally random and SEEMING like a novelty is a much more creative and thought-provoking logo. I'm pretty damn serious about this. It's not a novelty until you LABEL it as a novelty. 3-D glasses COULD be a novelty, but UCB turned it into an identity. Fuck the need for a crisp, corporate logo...we are NOT starbucks and we are NOT Coca-cola. We are fun, random, quirky, and Austin at its best. A kitchen sink totally encompasses all of those things.

A kitchen sink is something everyone can use [like improv is...]
A kitchen sink produces the necessities of life (water) in an instant [like improv does...]
A kitchen sink ties into our motto, though is not dependent on the motto to stand alone as a logo.

Your choice improv community:

We can have a boring, stiff logo (a thumbs-up???) that reflects that our community is uncreative and simple.
OR we can have a logo that makes people ask questions (a kitchen sink)

"What the fuck does a kitchen sink have to do with the Austin improv community?" is a MUCH MORE INTERESTING QUESTION than "Why a thumbs up?"

And, no offense to Wes, fuck seasonal branding. Yet again, we are the Austin Improv community, not Coke, not Pepsi. We don't need santa or polar bears or penguins or a fucking elf or a chihuaha or a gecko. Alright. We are looking way too far into this, and avoiding the simple questions that will define exactly what we need from a strong logo. You think UCB asked themselves about seasonal branding or corporate crispness when they crapped out a logo that has stood the test of time and become a wonderful statement for their particular improv theatre? No, they didn't. WE DON'T NEED TWO LOGOS. We need one GOOD logo.

We need ONE logo that truly reflects all the things we feel about improv. We can't rush into this. I don't want us to be stuck with a sub-standard logo that we'll all grow bored with a year from now [personally I think a thumbs-up AND a kitchen sink fall into THAT category].

Also, we can't forget the motto (Everything from Nothing) I'll feel horribly angry if that Logo doesn't even fit with the Motto AT ALL. They don't have to be dependent on eachother, but it would at least be nice if they worked well together.

That's my two angry cents.

-phil

[phlounderphil]

In other words: Stop asking yourself "What will other people think/feel about the logo?"

and ask yourself...

"What do I think about the logo? How does this logo apply to my ideas of the community and improv itself?"

[Evilpandabear]

having one logo really limits yourself. had you BEEN at the meeting phil, you would have understood the concept wes, chris, i and most shared about the corporate "umbrella logo."

i like the kitchen sink, but as roy pointed out, it has been used before AND ALOT. the thumbs up is classy and made for what we are aspiring to be in our long term goals--a nationwide organization.

the sink is catchy and will be used for mostly everything; however, for business papers, business cards, filling out a non-profit application, the sink falls flat. thumbs up will do these things well, and we shouldn't ignore that. sara's ai smiley face would be a perfect logo for our future g-rated family friendly improv shows. the way i see it is that AI will be HUGE. we need something to "umbrella" everything and everyone; however, AI is broken down into divisions of different campaigns. each campaign should be targeted towards its audience. smiley face is for children, potatoes are for hippies, sinks for the hip non-conforming conformist austinite. i see nothing wrong with this. chances are, unless you see business papers for AI you may never see the thumbs up (unless you put little stamp logos on the bottom of flyers etc., which would be cool as well)

inevitably,

the motto is important.

the logo is important.

should one truly be more important than the other? which and by how much, is the real question that will be answered the 29th. in the end it seems everyone is siding with the thumbs up vs the sink (vs the potato!) are there any other logos out there that people want to fight for?

*no need to get too worked up phil, you're going to get killed sooner than later anyway keep the passion alive kemosabe

[phlounderphil]

I understand the need for an umbrella logo.

But we're not at the point where we need to be thinking of that AT ALL. Thinking so far in the future hinders our thinking of the now. Austin Improv needs one consistent logo. Be it the thumbs-up or the kitchen sink, or the potato, or anything else.

#2 - that's really low that you would insult me for not being at the meeting. You know some of us have plenty of things to do in our lives, and I've been a highly supportive member of the community (selling tickets nearly EVERY weekend), so missing out on one meeting should not affect your viewpoint on how dedicated I am to this cause. That would be the same as me assuming that your opinion is not as important considering that you're moving away from the community soon anyways.

Speaking as someone who intends to base his life around improv and be an integral part of the Austin improv community (I've already scheduled several high-school and middle-school workshops to teach) for the LONG TERM. I think we're looking at this logo issue completely wrong. The point is not to consider the corporate appeal of our logo. Yet again, UCB is a nationwide organization (that have several schools AND tour) and they have ONE LOGO. That's how versatile and awesome their logo happens to be. Not only can they stamp it on business documents and flyers, they can sticker the town with that logo and people KNOW what it means.

So, my proposal is that we stop focusing on needing more than one logo, and focus instead on finding the ONE logo that will serve ALL of our needs.

Good job being so supportive though Jay, you make me feel so much like a valued member of the community, and I love how eager you are to reach out and explain to me what I apparently missed at the meeting. Oh wait, you didn't do that at all you stupid bastard.

thanks anyways.
-phil

[Wesley]

Yowsers, don't shoot the messenger.
I think you're reading a lot more into the post than was there. I'm just relating some points that were brought up in the meeting in the interest of full and robust discussion. Meetings which were and are open for anyone to come and discuss these very issues. Valerie and myself both pointed to the obscureness of the UCB logo as a plus (to quote myself on these very boards "what I like about UCB's logo is the double take you do to figure out what it is and what it means. You don't get the same effect with most corporate logos like Pepsi or Nike").

Here's my personal take on the logo discussion at the moment:

I'm still anti-multiple "logos" for permanent use at this point (sorry Jay). I don't necessarily like the idea of a logo for the co-op, a logo for kids shows, a logo for something else, etc. (Sure, some people like Pier One, Gap, and Pottery Barn have done good for themselves with adult AND kid logos, but only after the main brand was clearly established).
But, and it is a big but, I can be sold on the idea of a logo AND a short-term themed campaign. In other words, we can use all of the things we feel passionate about without having to pick only one and shedding the rest. I think it is crucial we remember that. If we like sinks and potatos, then we can still use them for 3 or 6 months in special campaigns, or in the targeting of specific markets, even if we select another logo as the "permanent" presence. In fact, this is precisely what most highly successful companies do.

For example: I'd love to see an organic comedy campaign that we market at niche places like Farmer's markets and the like and slap on T-shirts, but I generally feel "organic" is something of a social buzzword (I say that coming from an industry that lives or dies by following, recognizing, and predicting buzzwords). I would hate to see us make a potato our long-time logo and change the motto on the hopes that the word "organic" elicits the same response in 3 or 5 years as it does now. "Everything from nothing" has a nice timelessness to it and in no way prevents having a shirt with the phrase "organic comedy" on it.

There is, however, one major caveat to campaigns...the main logo should be set and quasi-known first. The reason Coke can use polar bears or Target can use a spotty dog without confusing customers is because their basic logo is set and known. Introducing a logo AND a campaign at the same time can be confusing.

What I'd love to see at the end of the day is a set-up like Chuys. Go look. Right now they have shirts for sell with a monkey, a fish, a dog, Elvis, and just their name...in a variety of colors. I'd love to see our box with T-shirts for sale with a potato, a sink, the capitol (I don't like it as a logo, but I like it as a campaign, especially for tourists), and something else all at once so that people can buy what they want (though, they'd all have the permanent logo in the corner or on the sleeve). Even UCB offers Little Donny, Assssscat, and switchblade T-shirts in addition to the logo Tees. Choice is just good business. I was not promoting seasonal branding so much as holding up real-world examples of the difference in a "logo" and a "campaign" (seasonal or not) from highly successful organizations.

As for the sink, I still like it for campaign or possible logo. One reason is that it can be many things and still be a sink. We can do "high brow" comedy and brand it with a fancy sink or do a "working man's" show and brand it with a grungy garage sink. It can be what it is and yet still be a lot of things. I think it is creative and highly flexible.
Though, as for it being a novelty, it is. That word seems to have upset you, but your argument for wanting to keep seems to be precisely because it is novel. The question that arose in the meeting--and it was a fair question--was, "is the novelty timeless or will it have a limited lifespan?" UCB's logo I like, but I still call it a novelty logo. It is just a novelty that hasn't worn off, and for me won't.

As for the motto, there were quite a few voices raised to the possibility of changing that if a different logo is chosen that doesn't work with it. So the motto may not be set in stone (though I'd like it to be since a) we've already started using it, b) unlike a proposed "organic comedy" motto, it incorporates dramatic improv, and c) as I said before, it has a timeless quality that I feel insulates it from going stale anytime soon).

However, enough of my rambling, back to Valerie's main post...there is still a chance for people to work on logos and have their say at the next meeting. Passionate people should get together to work on samples for the 29th and we'll put it to the community.

[Wesley]

I understand the need for an umbrella logo.
But we're not at the point where we need to be thinking of that AT ALL.

I think we are, though.
A lot of people are looking well beyond T-shirts and photocopied flyers in the next 6 months. People are seriously looking at non-profit status and all the applications and affiliations that go with it. We don't know the status of the Hideout space even two years out and the community may want to apply for a grant or loan to rent a new space. OoB mailings, recruitment, and press releases will probably be very heavily influenced by these logos and that will start very soon. As Jay said, sending in a sink logo to the IRS for non-profit status or to a bank for a loan may not help the cause any.

A lot of troupes are re-vamping websites right now. Some are performing in alternative spaces (like The Space), and some people are lining up corporate gigs. I think we have a very real need for an umbrella logo now, so that it can be incorporated into these things.

The question for me is what best serves the growth AND creative nature of the community. That's another reason I like the distinction of logo and campaign, becuase I'm more willing to give on the logo if I think of it as a business function for letterhead and applications.
I don't know a lot about UCB's set-up, but I associate that logo only with the main troupe from the TV show and the theater itself, not with the NY improv community. In Austin, where we are acting as a community, each troupe can still have it's own UCB-like logo and the community logo can be a thumbnail in the corner of shirts, flyers, or websites.
Do I want to be affiliated with the Austin Improv community? Of course! But do I want that logo to serve as my troupe's identity? No way.

[valetoile]

As someone who has been through the process of getting non-profit status, I can say the IRS does not give a SHIT what your logo is. They care a lot more about your purpose. That being said, I think any logo can be made to look nice and professional enough for business use. Anyone we're sending mail to knows we're an improv theatre group, not a law firm. We can have an interesting and fun logo. I'd encourage everyone to stop fighting so much here about what logos will and won't work, and to put that passion to constructive use by preparing a well-produced design presentation promoting your idea for the general meeting. In the end, the logo is not important enough for everyone to get so upset about. Have fun!

[acrouch]

It's amazing that for a bunch of improvisers we're so focused on getting this "right."

The process of improv (yes and, etc.) has proven out as a much more effective way of getting things done (and much more positive) than this concentrated struggle we seem to be getting into over the logo.

[sara farr]

Do I want to be affiliated with the Austin Improv community? Of course! But do I want that logo to serve as my troupe's identity? No way.

Here, here, Wes. This is the best argument I've heard so far regaurding the idea of multiple logos.

Therefore, I think that THE ONE community (umbrella) logo should be generic or abstract enough to both say "I Represent the Austin Improv Community At Large" and not limit that representation to one facet of the community. So, does the community motto "Everything from nothing" encompass it all? And if so, don't we want the logo and the motto to tie together?

Personally I am not a big fan of the thumbs up, though I understand it is commonly accepted as a positive hand gesture. I don't like it because I learned a couple of years ago that it originally stood for "erection". Not everybody knows that bit of trivia, but it still kinda creeps me out in the way a smarmy guy in a trenchcoat would creep me out. So everytime I see someone giving a thumbs up, I think, "That person is saying they are so excited, they have an erection". And the image of the capitol dome on top of the thumb makes me think "Oh, that person is saying they are so excited they have an erection, but that they practice safe sex".

I say we keep looking for something that (everyone; or the majority; or the descision making committee) likes. This is really just our first round. Producing a page full of thumbnails is a standard practice in the creative process. It's very easy in this phase of design to get sidetracked by one idea you are attracted to and ignore the possibility that there may be a better idea out there. I don't think it is productive to push a logo through into the next phase of design (as Val suggests) until you have a strong consensus that the idea of the logo (the thumbnail) is the one you want to put your money on. It's much easier less time consuming (translate cheaper) to generate ideas than it is to carry them forward into a full presentation. And how deflating to the artists if they put all that work into it and theirs is not chosen. Remember, you are working with volunteers, not paid designers.

I propose that we clarify what we want to say with the umbrella logo (& motto?), and those who are interested can then try to produce more thumbnails and see what we can come up with. And BTW -- any of you can produce thumbnails -- it is nothing more than chicken scratch. So pick up a pencil and scratch out an idea.

[Evilpandabear]

you stupid bastard.

ouch phil. no need for name calling. perhaps i did cross the line, and sure i'm always in need of being taken down a peg, but damn, phil. you know i like you (albeit, i do wan to kill you, but that has nothing to do with this.)

obviously, the logo is a hot debate. i'm glad so many improvisers are so passionate about it. (damn phil, that still hurts, seriously that really hurt.) what truly needs to happen is for more people to make more logos. the more variety we have sooner or later we'll run into something that everyone will fall flat and say GODDAMN THAT'S THE ONE!

this whole thing reminds me of the troupes struggling to compromise together for a troupe name, but now we have multiplt troupes with multiple untrouped players struggling to find a logo. it could only begin ugly, and end orgasmagicly delicious. haha goddamn i love improv.

(seriously though, phil. that truly cut deep.)

[phlounderphil]

That was pretty bitchy of me, sorry about that.

then again, this is a serious topic to me, and because of certain people's actions I feel like my opinion isn't always valued. When you mentioned the thing about me not being at the meeting, that was sort of the last straw. Sorry again for that Jay, but please learn this lesson, DON'T PUSH ME. heh.

Also, andy, I totally agree with you. We shouldn't get it "right" we should find something organic that really FEELS good.

that's what I think.